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Featured Christian Apologetics: Knowing Our Enemy Called the Scientific Worldview

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Steven Yeadon, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I have compiled the scientific worldview according to my knowledge of it as a former atheist.

    The Scientific Worldview
    The scientific worldview believes that we should imagine that the universe is simply physical phenomena, which have been proceeding from when time began, and which have been predetermined by scientific laws. All of this existing at many levels of perspective from a galaxy on down to our daily lives on down to a subatomic particle. Thus, our universe is simply a vast, vast number of physical interactions that have made the universe into one long, predetermined chain of cause and effect since time began. A chain of cause and effect that predetermines galaxies, our own day to day lives, and subatomic particles.

    As human beings, we must understand our smallness and insignificance to all the universe, but we must also understand and cherish the large impact we have on others who we know and love. However, as human beings we must also understand our frailty, and how easy it is for us to die and then possibly cease to exist.

    As such we should live lives that fulfill us and give us meaning in this universe. Lives filled with comfort and ease to take advantage of every moment we exist.

    Thus, human existence is about personal meaning, personal fulfillment, comfort, and ease. It is simply put dangerous to your well being to believe that you make a huge difference to the universe or beyond with your life.

    Another hard truth to understand is that there are most likely many people on other worlds like us all throughout the universe, who have their own struggles. These people are called aliens by our society at this point in time.

    Furthermore, while a Creator is certainly very possible and even plausible given the Big Bang, for an active God to exist that entity’s existence must be apparent in the chains of cause and effect within the universe, by at least being apparent in history, a notion which is highly debatable.

    In addition, all religions and holy books must be judged by whether they fit the evidence we currently have from scientific disciplines and history. If they make claims science can test, then science and the religion or holy book’s claim must coincide. If they make historical claims then history and the religion or holy book’s claim must coincide. That said, no holy books conform to the truths about the universe currently at our disposal, even the Bible.

    Also, while difficult to explain physical phenomena exist, these phenomena will one day be explained through new scientific laws.

    The secular worldview is also about maximizing the pleasure people have in their lives in any of its forms such as happiness, comfort, peace, visual pleasure from architecture or artwork, aural pleasure from music, pleasurable scents, exotic experiences, ease of work. and much, much more. People are given the ability to pursue pleasure in any of a myriad of ways. Now, because of all of this, the hope of each person is to live in pleasure, especially to live with happiness and peace, from the day they are born until the day they die a death that is not attributed to violence or an accident. This also means that at its core the secular worldview is about establishing a paradise on earth in the future, where it is often imagined mankind also lives in outer space.

    However, the secular worldview has not yet defeated the problems of crime, absolute poverty, relative poverty, natural disasters, or the necessity for warfare.

    Because of the many chains of cause and effect working on us free will as we know it is very constrained, and many argue it doesn't exist at all. Missing here of course is the notion of a God Who answers prayer or Who works miracles that upset the chains of cause and effect in the universe. That is unless that God is apparent to history, which is debatable.​

    I open up for discussion whether I describe the scientific worldview correctly? Have I represented the skepticism of this worldview well? Also, how we are to respond to this belief system?

    As for my own response, I am writing an essay where I show that the bible already talks of people like those who embrace the scientific worldview. This is just another in a long line of lies of the Adversary and it has the exact same fruit as before. I use Romans 1:16-2:11 to show the biblical response to the scientific worldview. From this passage it is clear that the scientific worldview is just another attempt to suppress the truth by those who have rejected God, and the curse upon those who do so is the same as before. I will post my essay later, as I don't want to bog down readers and responders with text.

    I will say that to say that the scientific worldview is unbiblical is to understate the situation entirely. The bible at every turn seems to disagree with the scientific worldview’s premises about the nature of life, humanity, meaning, purpose, how to live, and the world’s history.
     
  2. The Messenger

    The Messenger New Member

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    So where did life itself come from?
     
  3. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    I disagree with your entire premise and think it is damaging to faith and science.

    You are not describing "the scientific worldview", "a scientific worldview", or even "a scientific worldview." You are describing naturalistic/empirical rationalist worldview, not science.

    If you are describing science, then no Christian (or person of any religious faith) can be a scientist, and that's simply not true. Moreover, you are setting up a lot of people for a crisis in faith by claiming that those who have interesting in pursuing a career in the sciences must jettison their faith to do so -- that's not hyperbole, I personally know several people who went through that, including an astrophysicist and an organic chemist. The astrophysicist has somewhat reconciled her "six-day creation" upbringing and what she plainly knows is true in her studies of the cosmos, but the organic chemist jettisoned his faith and is not open to considering the Christian gospel partially because of Christians who have clearly told him that he has to reject science to be a man of faith.

    Some definitions:

    Naturalism - The philosophical belief that everything arises from natural and/or physical properties and causes.

    Empirical Rationalism - A devotion to science and reason as the primary authorities for determining what we know, or what can be known at all, about our world.
     
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  4. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I've heard many describe science as such. You can disagree, but many believe it.
     
  5. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I would encourage you to not spend your time debating people about things you know little about. The best thing to do is to ask good questions. According to Ecclesiastes anything a scientist discovers has always been there. Therefor he is an observer. In the end, the scientists allude to his faith not their science background. Science does not explain many things just as theology is not science. Theology explains evil but science does not. Science can arrive at the acceleration due to gravity but theology cannot. When we discuss things we must do as Jesus did and find a common ground we agree on and start there. I believe must scientists think they are after the truth. We want the truth too. We also know some Christians who are politicians rather than truth seekers and we know some scientists who do the same thing. When Jesus spoke with the Sadducees he used the fist five books of the Bible but with the Pharisees he used the OT. So we must find a common ground which is where we start.

    One can point out the lies going around or they can point to where lives are changed. For many centuries lies have been going around about how to make disciples. If we take a look at Jesus those lies are quickly seen as myths. What we do and say must be led by the truth. We can spend years preaching the lies or we can spend years making disciples and teaching people to know God and not just about Him.
     
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  6. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there is great danger in overstating the case, or in not being more careful in terminology. Science as discovery of the natural or material world does not belong to non-theists. There is nothing in nature, nothing in scientific discovery that discredits God or the Bible, or ever could. Those so inclined should pursue science; having such a scientific worldview is especially beneficial for God-believers.

    However, there are all sorts of “isms” out there ‘that ought to be “wasims”’ (Ravi Z quoting another). I do agree with the general premise that there are atheist philosophies that claim science in a way that makes it the be-all and end-all. But this is going beyond a merely scientific worldview. Scientism might be closer to what the OP (Steven) means, as it can include, or be associated with a host of atheistic “isms.” A couple of these are scientific naturalism and atheistic materialism.
     
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  7. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I was agreeing until this point. Scripture tells us to expose lies, particularly those of false teachers.

    There's a saying, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." It's actually biblical at its core. Jesus and the Apostles pointed out false teachings and lies often. It's an act of love.

    Paul talked about the war on truth and the importances of exposing lies, even demolishing them.

    2Cor. 10:3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.​
     
    #7 Calminian, Jun 29, 2018
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  8. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Sure. There are lots of people, and often people in science, who don’t know what they are talking about. They have unexamined presuppositions that they don’t deal with.

    But a Christian should do better than simply recycling ignorance. We should expose the vain philosophies that entangle people and reveal the truth.
     
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  9. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    The problem is science is a human created term and opinions vary on what it is. Philosophies of science vary. Those who see it differently would accuse you of recycling ignorance. I think we need to accept there is disagreement out there. Science is merely a branch of epistemology that is flawed and ever-changing.
     
    #9 Calminian, Jun 29, 2018
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  10. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Sure, but science is, at its essence, a method of investigating and understanding the material world in the present, and the evidence we have from the past, and building a structure of knowledge from which we can make predictions. Predictions are verified or disproven through experimentation and observation.

    I do accept that. That’s why Christians should not simply accept the presuppositions of others, but bring truth and clarity to the discussion. Simple broadsides against a popular “scientific” worldview just won’t help.

    No. Epistemology often finds its way into science, but science is not epistemology in any normal sense.
     
  11. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Epistemology is the umbrella (the theory of knowledge). Science falls under it somewhere. It sounds to me like you're elevating science way above where it should be in the mind of a Christian. You speak of it as if it's some immunitable infallible entity. I view it as a fallible, mutable, limited but sometimes useful tool, among many, for finding truth. But it's loaded with naturalistic, uniformitarian assumptions that make it ineffective in finding many truths the Bible records.
     
  12. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Wow, this is a heated debate. I will say more on my own viewpoint when not on my phone. For now, I must say that I believe in apparent age and that history before Eden is simply a work of art that should not be taken seriously. We can learn from that work of art of course, but it isn't history.
     
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  13. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    MMA forums are also heated, second only to Christian forums. :)
     
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  14. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think you really meant to say what you just said. Are you really saying the biblical creation accounts are fictional rather than historical fact?
     
  15. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I took it differently, but perhaps misunderstood. I'll wait for clarification. I thought he was saying he rejected the supposed billions of years naturalists believe existed before Eden.
     
    #15 Calminian, Jun 29, 2018
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  16. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Calminian got it. I believe that the bible is literally true and accurate. The stars, moons, planets, etc. were created by God after the earth.This means that He made it with what seems to be age, but isn't.

    Thus, apparent age. Many scientists hate this viewpoint calling it antithetical to the purpose and mission of science. I think they love science more than the Word.
     
  17. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    :Thumbsup
     
  18. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Maybe I do have my terms mixed up. The reason I call it the scientific worldview is because that is what I hear it called by those opposed to the Gospel. I figured I would square off against them with their own term, but that maybe a trap. I will have to ponder this and do some more research on what the best term is for the worldview I described. Another term I hear used by atheists is "secular rational" worldview. Using that term may be a trap as well.

    For now let's call this the dominant "Secular worldview" in the West.
     
    #18 Steven Yeadon, Jun 29, 2018
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  19. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    What I described is Materialism in the philosophical sense, because it sees nothing beyond the material.

    It is Empiricist in that it sees empiricism as the best form of knowing something. The highest form of epistemology.

    It is Rationalist as it sees reason and knowledge as superior to emotion or revelation.

    It's Secularist in that it is indifferent to religion but not outright opposed, so it isn't very secular.

    It is Naturalistic in that it it is indifferent to the supernatural, which if real would just be new scientific phenomenon to catalog and explain.

    It is Relativistic as it does not inherently believe in transcendent morality.

    It is Humanistic as it is centered on the development and pleasure of the human individual.

    It is Modernistic in that it sees society advancing or "progressing" with the modern day superior to all eras before it. The future being more advanced than the present as long as "progress" is not stalled.

    According to a dictionary, it isn't really Scientistic, as it is less focused on science's supposed superiority and more guided by Materialism and Empiricism.

    It is actually unique to the West given the various types of secularism I can draw from apologetical works. It is clearly a child of Enlightenment thinking.

    I see I was stupid, it is already existent and I reinvented the wheel, it is called Secular Humanism.
     
  20. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I actually described modern Secular Humanism, not Scientism. I'm sorry, I should have been more careful.
     
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