Featured Christian Hymns and Songs

That would be a good point, except for the fact that the scripture you posted was in response to the ongoing argument of justified by grace verses justified by performance. In fact, you quoted me on this when you posted the verses. Thus, you are in the camp of justified AFTER ye do all ye can do".

It has always been about how the lost are justified.

No, that would be your position. You believe the lost get saved by grace through faith, but then must keep themselves saved by performance. If you believe a person can lose their justification by grace through faith then that is not "Faith Alone' and is saying exactly as "by grace are ye saved AFTER ye do all ye can do" - No difference at all. You are simply trying to separate yourself from Moroni on this issue when there is no difference at all.

 

Let's see if I can clear this up so everyone understands the two positions;

1) "Faith Alone" is the doctrine which states that a person/sinner is justified/saved by grace through faith APART from any works however those works may be defined, i.e. practicing righteousness, works of righteousness, works of the law, deeds of the law, good deeds, good works, commandment keeping, obedience to the Law, keeping the commandments, etc, etc, I think you get it!

2) "Faith plus works" is the doctrine which states that a person/sinner is justified/saved by grace through faith AFTER they do all they can do, i.e. practicing righteousness, works of righteousness, works of the law, deeds of the law, good deeds, good works, commandment keeping, obedience to the Law, keeping the commandments, etc, etc, I think you get it!

"Faith Alone" believers believe that a person's works (i.e. see above) are an attribute flowing out of a person because of having been justified by Faith Alone. The works are the outward expression of an inward change. A true believer saved by grace through faith WILL have these works.

"Faith plus Works" believers believe that a person may have works BUT if those works are found lacking for any period of time the person becomes "lost again", thus, the works along with faith plays a part in the justification of the sinner. In fact, the works, or lack thereof, cancels out the grace of God. This doctrine is found taught among many denominations as well as the Mormon churches.

 

Just a p.s. - There is a third camp which believes salvation is by "Faith Alone" but that can be forfeited not by lack of "works" but by simply choosing not to believe anymore. But that is a OSAS topic and I have one question for them, which no one could ever answer.......see signature....:wavey:

 

That's the point I was making to Trevor, not all "believe" is "regenerated believe".

Thank you for finally agreeing with me. As I keep saying, this thread is not about Sanctification, but you keep posting scripture about Sanctification in a thread debating Justification. Now do you see?

How bout you define "turning from God" for us? Does this mean stopping to believe? Does this mean disobedience to commandments although you still believe? Does this mean practicing sin although you still believe? Well, I will let you define your position. And careful not to post Sanctification scriptures, we are looking for Justification scriptures in this thread.

 

Actually, if you recall, E7, whom you have been cheering on in agreement with thread after thread on this subject, declared the Mormons doctrine which states "by grace ye are saved AFTER ye do all that ye can do" is correct and in agreement with his preaching on this subject.....http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=88731

So yes, there is such a camp, and you have been defending the Moroni doctrine just as much as E7.

 

The applications may be true for you and E7 in your own minds, you are not alone in that respect. Not until you both understand the how and why of Justification will you ever understand "Eternal Life". "Free" "Gift" "Eternal" are terms that seem so blunt and clear to comprehend, yet so many want to add their own performance into God's plan. IMHO, it is satan who has bewitched even many of the saved by grace.

 

Welcome aboard QD (longer screen names usually find themselves abbreviated ) :wavey:

That's a good camp to be in :thumbs: Don't let anyone talk you out of it.

 

Thanks for the info, I didn't know there was a controversy over who wrote the book of Mormon. :thumbsup: And yes, I'm sure, it is quite important for the Christian to understand this antichrist doctrine of grace plus performance is embraced by a false religion as one of their signature core teachings.

Let's take a look;

Gal5:4 - "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace".

What is "fallen from grace" attributed to? Wait for it.........to "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

Now I am a "Faith Alone", "Justified by Grace Alone" born-again Christian, so explain how this "fallen from grace" can apply to me??? I have no desire to be justified by the law nor do I believe that I am justified by the law. But who is he who is "fallen from grace"? He who adds self-performance as a condition for justification.

You keep pointing a "Grace through faith alone" believer to Gal5:4. Does that really make sense to you?? "See! See! You can fall from grace!" No, not me, not any biblical faith alone believer, I don't believe a Christian is justified by the law, so how can I fall from grace??

Maybe you believe a Christian is justified by the law Bob, are you one of those "whosoever of you" ?? Remember brother, "This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you". (Gal5:8)

 

Agreed. Scripture is consistent on this point, it is not what one "says" , rather it is what one "is" (i.e. born of God - 1John). James also speaks to this "saying" aspect.

What does Matthew 7 say about the false? "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (16) . "Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them" (20) . What key word do we find here? "Know".

Jesus continues,

(21) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven". Two points; (1) "not everyone that SAYS" (2) "BUT he that DOETH the will of God"

(22) "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Two points; (1) Again, "many will SAY" (2) they point Jesus to their "good" works of self-righteousness.

And what is Jesus' answer? (23) "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity". Two points; (1) Jesus "NEVER KNEW" them - this destroys referencing Matt 7 as a once saved and them lost scripture, they were never saved for Jesus never knew them. (2) Jesus calls their "good" works "iniquity".

Shown above how it is not challenged by Matt 7 at all, yet rather supported.

Just another observation, and this is probably why many get caught up in this losing salvation doctrine. One needs to understand that a born of God Christian is more then "joined to Christ". I have spoken with Mormons and with Jehovah Witnesses and when I challenge them about whether or not Christ is "in" them, they always reply - "Christ is joined with me". The correct teaching of "Christ in you" is defined for us in the scripture as "regeneration", as two becoming one "new creation". This alone is proof of OSAS, Christ does not merely come along side and join Himself as just a helper, this is Mormon and JW teaching, no, Christ has become part of the born of God's very essence! This is why John declares in 1John3:9 - "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".