Christian or Baptist

Amen, Jim1999! Well said.

 

Eagle, maybe I am misunderstanding where you are coming from, but to me you sound just like a Catholic, when they say, "There is no salvation apart from the Church." What I heard you saying, is unless a person is an active member of a Baptist church, they are not saved. Is that correct?

 

I am a Baptist because I believe that historically, Baptist doctrine and practice are the closest to the church Jesus established during his earthly ministry, and to those New Testament churches portrayed in the scriptures. Thus (with some exceptions, of course), I must hold that Baptist churches are true New Testament churches, as well. I would also include those congregations which do not wear the Baptist label, but are baptistic in their doctrines and practices.

Holding that view leaves me no wiggle room. Those who have different doctrines and practices cannot qualify as true NT churches.

This does not mean that their members are not true believers. I think we all know such Christians, whose lives and testimony leave no doubt. I have no trouble calling my Presbyterian friends brother and sister. And others. I can also have Christian fellowship with them.

But there are some groups with which I can find no basis for fellowship. That would include those who practice baptismal regeneration, or other means of salvation by works, or who hold that the bread and cup have sacramental value (that is, are a means of grace). Or do not hold to the deity of Christ.

Yes, Baptist = Christian. If it does not, then I need to get out of there now, and start searching for the right one.

 

Tom, I completely agree with you in that churches who do not carry the Baptist moniker can still be Baptistic. My family and I are a member of a church family that is Baptistic in roots but dropped the name over 20 years ago for a variety of reasons. I just take exception with Eagle's seeming view that Christian/Baptist is synonymous. Like I said in another post, there are plenty of people who call themselves Baptists who will not go to heaven, but no Christians that won't.

 

I am always a Christian. I may not always be a baptist.

 

Interesting that this should come up now, because only a few days ago I was meeting with the team in our church that plans outreach programs. I was suggesting to them that when our neighboring Baptist church moves from the commercial-cum-new-housing location where they now are to take up a new location six miles out, we might think about working with them to gather up some of their members who are not willing to move and use them as a core to start a new work among all the new residents in that area. I mentioned that the only other churches in that vicinity were Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, African-American Baptist, and Hispanic non-denominational, and suggested that that left an opening for a multicultural evangelical/Baptist witness.

One member of the team became agitated and said that she hoped we would not confine ourselves to Baptists and would not "promote our little Baptist unity thing", for allegiance to Christ was all that mattered. I will spare you the blow-by-blow, but I had to point out that our evangelical understanding of what it means to relate to Christ in faith was different from paedobaptist concepts, and that in fact my idea was not to "pitch" to Baptists but to use a core of Baptist folk to "pitch" to the unchurched. Sorry to say the conversation never really resolved, ending with her saying to me, "I know you are steeped in all that Southern Baptist stuff, and I have problems with them." Oh, if she only knew how Southern Baptist theology and I have diverged over the last 30 years! But ... here is the issue you all are discussing, reframed: if I believe that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, how can I be indifferent to ecclesiologies and soteriologies that diverge from that?

 

Nicely put Joseph.. me sentiments exactly!

 

Over the years on the west coast I have shared my faith with many who claimed to be Baptists who were not ever born again. So being Baptist in that area of the country meant almost nothing.

 

Check again, Jason Garrett, I never said, "There is no salvation apart from the Church." - nor would I. I mostly like the way Tom Butler put it - but I like the way I put it also! You may be unfamiliar with Baptist ecclesiology.

Here is the problem with Tom Butler's statement, "Baptist = Christian," and I think that he will agree with this also, after he thinks about it - BAPTIST DOES NOT EQUAL CHRISTIAN! If a catholic, methodist, presby., etc., = Christian, then Christian does not equal Baptist. Much too vague. I ain't one 'ob 'em - nor do I want to be associated. I think that Joseph M. Smith, puts it nicely, and fairly, in his recent post,

Christian, though it has a nice ring to it, is just too vague to convey who I am, what I believe, and more importantly - who Christ really is. He is not what they say He is, or how they portray Him. They are wrong.

 

Eagle, thanks for the clarification. I appreciate that. I agree with the numerous posters on this board that there a many denominations out there that teach an erroneous scripture as it relates to salvation. The Baptistic doctrine is absolutely, I believe, mirrored to scripture as it relates to salvation and what that means. However, having stepped out of the SBC and into a non-denominational church, I have realized over the past 7 years that Baptists in absolutely no way, shape, or form, have the "market" cornered on what it means and looks like to be a Christian. Having been raised a Bapitist and a member of a Baptist church for 27 years, I know just as well as many of you that there are a good number of Baptist who are quite frankly arrogant about the whole thing and believe, ridiculously so, that unless one is a follower of Christ AND a Baptist, there are some issues there that need resolving. I'm thankful to see, Eagle, you are not one of those.

 

It is a good thing those kind are in the same church because we would not want their venom to spread to other churches.

 

Brother Jason, I think it takes it a step too to equate certainty with arrogance. I am certain that what I believe regarding Baptist doctrine and polity is right. Were I not certain, I would be constantly searching for the ones which are.

Unfortunately, I cannot avoid the conclusion that those who believe differently from me are not just different, but wrong. I believe Baptists are right. How can I say that those who believe differently are also right?

Now, I have changed my views on some things over the years. My eschatology is not the same as it once was. My ecclesiology is different. But I have not made my views in those areas a test of fellowship. I have taken the position that this is where I am today, but I wasn't there yesterday, and I may not be there tomorrow. I am open to more light.

But on the basic distinctives which, taken together, identify one as Baptist, I have not changed. But I dare not be smug about it. It's serious business.

 

As I scroll down through the posts, I'm seeing some good points made and also some not-so-good points made.

Some do not want to be called "Christian" because the term has been counterfeited. Yet, we call dollars, dollars, even though they have been counterfeited and we actually desire to collect the real thing because it has value. Might we not see the term "Christian" in the same light? That the enemy works to counterfeit God's "real thing" is no surprise. That's what he does. But we should not cede ground to him just because he does what he does!

Baptist is another issue. The last time I looked, there were TONS of different baptist groups operating in North America and around the world. If we count the "baptistic" groups who have like faith and practice (Bible Church, Evangelical Free Church, etc.) the number climbs even more.

Here is a wikipedia list of Baptists that has been compiled. I am certain that it is not complete. I think we have more different Baptists than their list on this board alone (or so it seems once we get into some topic!).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baptist_denominations

Me? I'm a Christian, also called a "Christ-follower," "disciple," and yes, Baptist. I've worked in and with the SBC, General Conference of General Baptists, GARB, Independent Baptists, Northern Baptists (American Baptists), Evangelical Free, Bible Church, and a host of others down through my years of ministry. I've been an SBC and GCGB pastor and have either planted churches or helped in both organizations (most of the GCGB leadership has attended Southern Seminary, an SBC seminary).

Know what I've discovered in working with all those groups (and others apart from the baptist tradition)? That they love Jesus, have come to Him in faith and repentance, and are all part of the greater Christian realm that only God can truly administrate. :thumbs:

I'm not glossing over the differences between the various groups. They certainly exist -- but are the differences enough to cause us to break fellowship (and partnership in spreading the gospel and building the kingdom)? I doubt it at the end of the day... I can't imagine how grieved that God must be for the way we have spent so much energy in-fighting instead of carrying out His commands... Perhaps we should fight the enemy instead... :BangHead:

 

Someone gave me a link to this article http://theresurgence.com/justification_by_theology a few days ago, and I found it edifying to read and thought maybe others might as well, so I will post a link. (I really don't know anything about the author other than this one post, so I am not endorsing the entire site)

As for myself. I don't know if I ever would find a church where I agreed 100% with everything, but for most of my life I have for the most part always ended up belonging to a Baptist church wherever I have lived. I find that for the things I find to be the most important to not compromise on, I am in agreement with a local Baptist church. As to the question, I usually identify myself as a Christian.

 

Why did you use Christ follower rather than Christian (which is what scripture uses)? Isn't that a recent addition to the vocabulary of some? Why not preach, teach, and use the vocabulary that scripture uses instead of letting the counterfeiters rob Christianity of what a real Christian is and redefining it by their practices. Most likely the Mormons and other cult groups will be using the same term, and then what will you do?

 

To quote Zimmerman: What would I be if I were not a baptist?......Ashamed!
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I think we tend to make too much of names and words. Both baptist and Christian were monikers given by our enemies, and we wear both with due respect.

We can claim great holiness by the names we often employ, and what they are actually saying is, Look at how holy and true I am.........and often that is true....just look.

Just remember, whatever is in the well, will come up in the bucket.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Ok, so here's a question for all of us. Assuming we (and by "we" I mean a follower of Christ or one who claims to be a Christian) all are in agreement that we are all sinners and were born with original sin, that we have need of a savior, that in order for our Sin and our sins to be forgiven we needed a once and for all perfect sacrifice, that Jesus was that once and for all perfect sacrifice to wash our sins away, that He rose on the third day conquering the power of sin, and that our acknowledgement of this sacrifice for us, our placing our faith and hope and trust in Him and what he's done, and accepting this sacrifice for us, and asking Him to guide us the rest of our lives, if we are all in agreement of this foundational and basic principle, does anything else matter? Does it matter how we do church? Does it matter what we wear to church? Over the years I have realized that most of the things that separate us Christians are not of a salvitical (sic?) nature but more of aesthetic differences or cultural differences (music, preaching style, clothing style, church size, etc. etc.). of course, there are quite a number of "Christians" who preach a Gospel other that what we know to be true, and in that I think all of us on this board find common ground. But if the basic, most fundamental ground rules if you will for Salvation and a walk with Christ are shared, why do some of you (and i would included myself up until 7 years ago) cling so tightly to this Baptist ideology. The way is narrow, as Jesus said, and it's not our Baptistic theology that will get us through the gate, it is our faith and hope in our blessed Saviour that will.

 

In my opinion and lifetime experience, it is the baptist ideology and theology that best represents the New Testament teaching. Hence, I am a baptist, despite the fact there are many baptists in this world that do not deserve that title.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Eagle posted...

Oh my word.

He wasnt joking.

Shamefull beyond comprehension.

 

If you will note, I used the word "Christian" first. I am not ashamed to be called a Christian, for that is what I am. The other terms are used interchangeably these days... But effectively mean the same thing.