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Christians and homosexual?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by freeatlast, Mar 21, 2004.

?
  1. The person should be put out of the church

    59.6%
  2. The person should be allowed to attend but not to serve

    21.1%
  3. The person is not a Christain

    19.3%
  4. Yes a person can be a Christian and homosexual

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    How bad is homosexuality? If you win a homosexual to the Lord, and he backslides into his wayward ways two or three times more before he completely overcomes it, is he still saved? When is he saved? Does he have to be completely free from the sin to be saved. Or is it possible in some circumstances to be one and be saved.
    According to your list, homosexuality is put in the same category with some other sins that are just as bad in God's eyes.

    Stealing is one of them. If you steal you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is just as bad to steal as it is to be a homosexual.
    Are you a thief? What does stealing include:
    1. Cheating on your taxes is a form of stealing.
    2. Cheating on an exam or test is a form of stealing.
    3. Taking things from the work place--even paper clips, and little things is a form of stealing.
    4. Violating copyright laws is a form of stealing.
    5. So is robbing a bank--that which we usually think of stealing. But you don't have to rob a bank to steal. You can steal ideas, information, music, the work of others, etc.
    Thieves will not enter into the Kingdom of God.

    Neither will those who are covetous. You had better think seriously about this one. It is said that covetousness is the most oft committed sin of the world. We want this, and we want that. We covet all the time. We are never satisfied with what we have. Walk through an electronics store, a department store, a mall, and see all the things that you "want" that you covet after.
    God places covetousness in the same category as homosexuality. I think we have a bunch of hypocrites here. Take the beam that is in your own eye before you take the speck that is another's eye. Deal with the faults that you have in your own life first. Don't be so quick to condemn one's salvation.
    Are you a thief? Are you covetous? Are you homosexual? Sin is sin in God's sight.

    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    DHK
     
  2. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    LarryN,
    loving someone and speaking the truth are not exclusive. The bible is clear that a person who practices homosexuality is not a Christian. No matter how or when it comes about. The idea that they are being singled out I do not agree with. I will say that there is much discussion on the subject however and well there should be with churches ordaining people who are homosexuals. Also it is clear that there needs much teaching on the issue of sin since there are those who have been deceived into believe that a person can be a practicing homosexual and saved even though scripture says that they cannot.
    We are warned that the time would come when men would not endure sound doctrine and we are seeing just that in every denomination there is.
     
  3. LarryN

    LarryN New Member

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    I see I wasn't clear enough in my statement. I wasn't claiming that practicing homosexuals are/can be Christians. I was just trying to make the point that many Christians often seem to treat practicing homosexuals much more harshly than other practicing sinners. There seems to be an attitude of writing-off homosexuals as a lost-cause at times, to the point of not even making an effort to win them to Christ.

    Not every Christian is a Fred Phelps (if he even is a born-again believer), but some I've encountered sure seem to lean toward his brand of hateful/hate-filled extremism.
     
  4. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    DHK,
    I cannot speak for anyone else but I certainly have not forgotten about the rest in the list. As a matter of fact I posted the whole list and not just one part of it. So yes it includes those who covet. If any person practices sin they are lost. it matters not if they are into coveting or homosexuality. However this topic happens to be on homosexuality. The reason is that there is a clear need to expose the false teaching today that a person be saved and in that sin. As we now see churches turning form the word of God, ordaining people who are condemned in scripture there needs to be an eye opening. Also we are seeing right here those who have been lead astray into believing that a person be a homosexual and saved. Scripture says no they cannot. It is a serious thing to stand against the word.
    You mentioned the backslider returning to their sin. That my friend is a man made doctrine and not NT. Here is what the NT says.
    1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

    The Greek construction is referring to practice because of character. This makes it impossible for a person to return to a lifestyle if sinning. I know that we have all listened to those testimonies where someone claims to get saved and then returns to living in sin only to come later to rededicate their lives. The truth is that they did not get saved according to scripture. It even says that once born again we CANNOT sin (practice sin) The reason being is Who abides in us.
     
  5. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    I see I wasn't clear enough in my statement. I wasn't claiming that practicing homosexuals are/can be Christians. I was just trying to make the point that many Christians often seem to treat practicing homosexuals much more harshly than other practicing sinners.

    Not every Christian is a Fred Phelps (if he even is a born-again believer), but some I've encountered sure seem to lean toward his brand of hateful/hate-filled extremism.
    </font>[/QUOTE]LarryN,
    I still do not see your point. I have not read anything here that is hateful. Pointing out the word of God is not hate. if anything it is the most loving thing anyone can do. I may have overlooked a post here or there, but what I have read is not hateful. As to the question could it happen, certainly. Not everyone who stands against sin claiming the name of the Lord is a Christian. And in those times when discussion might get heated even a Christian could fail, but the evidence that they are real is that they do not wallow in their failures. By the way. I have no idea who Fred Phelps is. :confused:
    You mentioned hateful/hate-filled extremism, I guess from the Christian community. My friend you evidently have not been keeping track. It is the homosexual community who has exhibited this type of action. You might want to try and set down with a group of them will all the love you can muster and explain what the scriptures says about their sin and see who is hateful/hate-filled and full of extremism. No matter how you plead with them, they will blast you,accuse you, and mock you and there will be no evidence of love from them, but rather a desire to overcome anything thta is good.
     
  6. LarryN

    LarryN New Member

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    I never said anything about anybody's posts here. I'm just going to call it quits, because anything I say seems to be taken out of context.


    He's the guy who (among other incidents) picketed a murdered homosexual's funeral with signs reading such pleasantries as "Matthew is now burning in Hell", etc. THAT'S the kind of thing I'm referring to.

    A truly great witness to those attending the funeral. I'm sure they saw the love of Christ displayed in his actions.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    John 8:34-35
    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
     
  8. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    I never said anything about anybody's posts here. I'm just going to call it quits, because anything I say seems to be taken out of context.


    He's the guy who (among other incidents) picketed a murdered homosexual's funeral with signs reading such pleasantries as "Matthew is now burning in Hell", etc.

    A truly great witness to those attending the funeral. I'm sure they saw the love of Christ displayed in his actions.
    </font>[/QUOTE]It was not my intent to take you out of context. i was simply responding on what you sems to be says. As to mr. Phelps, thank you for reminding me of him. based on scripture such hate gives clear evidence of no conversion.
     
  9. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Yes and if we are saved sin is no more our master. For we are slaves to the one who we serve. Sin unto death or righteousness unto life.
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I am fully aware what the Bible says on the practice of sin. I am also aware of what Jesus taught by the parable of the prodigal son, which you might as well cut out of your Bible, if you believe what you just espoused. The Bible also calls, "Lot, that righteous man," though he did not have much of a testimony as we read in the Old Testament. One might say that he was a backslidden believer. What the Bible does teach is this:

    "The Lord knows them that are his."
    "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it."

    It is not for you to say dogmatically who is saved and who is not. Scripture says that you do not know the heart, and cannot know the heart. We are to be fruit inspectors and that is all. Speaking in the context of false teachers Jesus said in Mat.7:20:
    "By their fruits ye shall know them."
    A true disciple (not necessarily a new Christian) will continue in the doctrine of Christ.
    1John 2:19 teaches that there were many that left from the fellowship because they were "not of us."

    1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    They didn't continue in the doctrine.
    Jesus said if you continue in my doctrine you shall be my disciples. Many forsook him.

    However, is there not a difference between a new beleiver and a disciple? I believer there is. There are different stages of growth in the believers life. Why else would the exhortation be there to grow in grace and knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ? We grow, and we grow at different rates. There were some Christians in the church at Corinth that denied the resurrection; some that came to the communion service drunk, some that deliberately caused division in the church; some that were taking their brother to court; some that were making a mockery of the Lord's Table; and even one that had committed an horrible act of incest. That particular sin was just as bad and intolerable as homosexuality, and yet the man was still called a brother in the Lord. He was "purged" or excommunicated until he came to repentance for his sin, not for his salvation.
    He was backslidden, carnal, not right with the Lord. In fact pretty well the whole church at Corinth was in a backslidden condition. Here is what Paul wrote concerning them:

    1 Corinthians 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    If there is no such thing as being backslidden; if being backslidden is a man-made doctrine--then there was no such thing as the Corinthian Church!
    DHK
     
  11. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    DHK
    the prodigal son is not about someone who is saved and goes into sin. The prodigal is lost. That is what the passage says. Perhaps you have cut it out of your bible!You might want to read it. The father says my son who was lost.
    Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
    Sort of plain wouldn't you say so? Sounds a whole lot like the new birth to me! Also this is not about an individual it is about israel, but it still applies that the saved person does not leave nor do they practice sin.
    As for Lot there is no sin mentioned in his life as being practiced. However you forget one thing my friend. Lot was before the law never received the commands and way before the giving of the Spirit in the NT. makes a BIG difference! So there is absolutely no comparison. And as I said there is no practice f sin mentioned in his life. As a matter of fact the scripture says that Lot was a righteous man and vexed.

    2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
    2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
    2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;)

    So clearly you have chosen poorly in the person of Lot to make your argument against what is written. Lot was a man of God who was in a bad place and his soul was upset by the actions of those around him. That is a picture of a man of god, not a man of the world.


    About the heart you are wrong again. The bible says we can know the heart. The Lord said this;
    Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: So we can know the hearts by what men practice.

    The pasaage you gave;
    Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Is not saying I cannot know your heart or you mine. It is saying that the heart is so wicked that we cannot know even our own heart. Peter is an example. He never believed in a thousand years he would deny the Lord. The reason was he was looking at his own heart and it deceived him. he though that he was better then he was. Many people do the same. many of us have done things and then say to ourselves, " I cannot believe that i did that or said that or what ever." The reason is our hearts are wicked and we do not know them. So we need to take care.
    1Cr 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
    A lesson that Peter and many of us have learned the hard way, but notbecause we practice sin, but because we fail in a moment of time.

    As far as a true disciple they are a true Christian. There is no difference. The passage in 1John 2:19 is warning that people can come in and look like they are real, but if they leave they show their true state, Lost!

    As for me being able to say in every case if someone is saved or not that is correct. However I can say in every case what the bible says and it says that anyone who practice sin is lost. No exceptions. That includes the homosexual or the one who covets and all in-between.

    As to the church at Corinth what we know is that some were from time to time doing things not pleasing to the Lord. But we also know that none of them who were really saved were living in sin who were saved.

    1John makes that clear. Also there was evidence that many in the church were not saved. If you read 2Corinth. the last chapter you see that since Paul questions their salvation. In the case of that church we are removed all these years and not knowing exactly what was happening we cannot tell who exactly what was and was not.What we do know based on scripture is that there was not the practice of sin in any believers life. So today as then as we meet people who claim to be saved if they practice sin we can know without a doubt that they are lost. That is what the bible teaches.
    Again we have a warning from John
    1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    Even so many will deny the word and believe as they will and be deceived. John also says; 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    As you see it has absolutely nothing to do with how young or old you are in Christ. It has to do with the new birth. Any person no matter the background they come from as soon as they are born again they never again practice sin. here is why;
    2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    As you see we have been made new at the moment of salvation. Actually the passage in the Greek says;
    If any man is in Christ he is a new creature, oild things have passed away and are passing away; behold all things are new and becoming new.
    At salvation we are made new enmough that we never agin practice sin, but we still do sin and that is what is being made new over and over leading and remaking us so that sin grows less and less. We may have a lot of baggage that comes with us and have to fight battles until it is totally overcome, but we do not practice any of the baggage again once saved. From time to time we stumble, but we do not wallow in our past sins nor return to them to practice.

    DHK You said;
    "If there is no such thing as being backslidden; if being backslidden is a man-made doctrine--then there was no such thing as the Corinthian Church!"

    If you notice Paul NEWER called the Corinthian church "backslidden" The term is only used in the OT and it always refers to Israel and in every case Israel was lost. It is a term for the lost, not the saved. So it is a man made doctrine when anyone tries to apply it to an individual unless you are calling them lost.

    As to the passage you gave in 1Corinth to try and prove your case but it does not they read.

    1 Corinthians 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    This is not one person. This is all different people doing different things on occasions. No one person is practicing these things as a lifestyle so again this proves nothing except that what I said is correct. The Spirit of God through Paul makes every effort to make sure that no one assumes that a person can be saved and practice sin.

    1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    As you notice it just cannot happen. It is such an important issue that the Spirit makes sure it is repeated in the Gal letter.
    Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    The word is what matters, not what some men teach today.
    Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

    So to sum up the bible teaches that no one who practices sin is saved, no matter how much they claim to know Jesus. Many will say lord! Lord! only to hear "I never knew you." it is both a serious and sad state for many and even more sad are those who reject what is written. No one born of God continues to practice sin.
    God bless
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    A son is a son is a son. His last name never changed. His genes never changed. His father did not disown him. No matter what he did he always remained a child of his father, as I will always remain a child of my Father. When he came back to his father he was not born again, he was restored back to fellowship with his father again. The fellowhsip was restored again. He had already been born. He was lost and now was found. He had gone astray and now had come back. Once a child, always a child. It portrays the longsuffering, infinite love, and forgiveness of the Father.
    Lot was one of the most privileged people in the Old Testament. He was witness to one of the greates men of God in the Bible. God spoke to Abraham, gave Abraham the covenantal promises, gave him divine protection. Lot would never forget how Abraham rescued him, his wife and family with only 315 of his servants from the hands of the armies of 5 confederate kings. Lot would never forget how his wife turned into a pillar of salt, and how Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for their wickedness; nor would he forget the angels that came to his door the evening before the destruction of those cities. Nor would he forget his horrible sin of offering his own virgin daughters to be gang-raped, and possibly murdered by a homosexual raving mad mob of men banging at his door, trying to get at his guests--that they may "know" them. The life choices that Lot had made were wrong and sinful. It was only by the intervention of Abraham through prayer, that Lot's life was saved. That fact, plus the fact that he himself had already believed on Jehovah as a result of the testimony of his uncle, Abraham. Yet he himself was a carnal backslidden beleiver, who had time and time again, seen the power of God in the life of Abraham. He could have been a testimony for good in Sodom, but he was a disastrous failure instead--offering his own daughters as human sacrifices to a homosexual crowd!!

    2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
    2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
    2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;)

    No, Lot was righteous because he believed on Jehovah. He was not a "man of God," in the sense that we use the word. Would you choose him for your pastor?? He was carnal, wicked, a backslider, one who was not right with God. He made the wrong spiritual choicse almost everytime in life. Read through the book of Genesis and examine his life in more detail. He was not a man of God. He was saved by faith, yes, but he was very carnal, very backslidden, and quite wicked and worldly in his ways.

    Because I observe the carbon and other pollutants that come out of the exhaust pipe of the car, does that make me a mechanic that knows the heart--the inner workings of the engine of the car? Not at all. Jesus was not teaching that you could know the heart, neither did he say so. He simply said what came out of the heart, just like what comes out of the exhaust of the car--pollutants. And that is exactly what he is referring to here in this verse--pollutants--sin.

    Good. We are at least in partial agreement here.

    Study 1Cor.5--the entire chapter. Here are the first two verses:

    1 Corinthians 5:1-2 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

    This incestuous relationship had been going on for some time now, and these believers were not concerned about it all. In fact they boasted about the sinful relationship instead of mourning about it. This was not a time to time doing a sinful thing. This was living continually in sin--backslidden; carnal! Verse 11 also indicates that the offending people were believers as well.

    The incestual situation in 1Cor.5 had to do with believers. They were carnal backslidden believers living in sin.

    True enough these are general principles. But let me stress that only God knows the heart. There are carnal Christians, as the the First epistle to Corinthians teaches. Whether you call them carnal or backslidden is really moot at this point. The point is that they are not right with God. The Bible also speaks of worldly Christians. One can rightly speak of a worldly Christian as a backslidden Christian. You don't like the word "backslidden" because the word is not found in the KJV in the New Testament. Well, words have meanings, and also synonyms. There are many, many Christians who are worldly--care more for the things of this world than for spiritual things. The Bible says plainly about them:
    "Whosoever shall be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."
    A worldly Christian is not only backslidden, but is the very enemy of God!

    This is a heresy known as entire sanctification brought about by the holiness movement. If it were true then John would have never had to write 1John 1:9:
    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    But we do sin. And to deny it is to deny the Word of God, and to deny Christ as well.

    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    You greatly misunderstand this passage of Scripture. It does not teach that we will never practice sin again; it does not say that. We receive a new nature, yes. But we still have the old nature, and we will still sin. The old nature will forever be at war against the new nature. The "old things that are passed away," is the old sinful life that I just repented of when I got saved. That doesn't make me immune to sin. No one is immune to sin. We all sin. Only God is true; every man a liar (Rom.3:4).
    Read Romans 7, and see the battle Paul had with the old nature and how in desperation he finally cries out and says:

    Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

    No, the Israelites were God's chosen people, not God's lost people. Backslidden referred to them when they had gone astray. It is true that the word is closely associated in meaning to the word apostasize, but that is not the actual denotation in the context given in the various places that it is used--particularly in Prov.14:14

    Proverbs 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.
    --Here the word simply means a non-adherence to that which is right, or more simply put reaping the consequences of your own wrong doing; and that is applicable to all of us.

    In the Old Testament God compared Israel to his wife. When they backslid, it was the picture of a wife committing adultery--the same picture that James uses in James 4:4 of a worldly person.

    Please learn the definition of a church.
    A church is a voluntary association of baptized believers who have come together for the purpose of fulfilling the Great Commission, carrying out the two ordinances that Christ has given us (baptism and the Lord's Supper).
    He was writing to the church at Corinth--the entire church--baptized believers. They, the entire church, were a carnal church.

    1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Praise the Lord. We are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. "Such were some of you."

    1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    DHK
     
  13. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Notice these are not going to heaven. A person cannot be a homosexual and a Christian.

    1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
     
  14. Audra

    Audra New Member

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    A person that is a homosexual is sinning. We are all sinners. That person can believe in Christ, and can therefore be a Christian. But that person will not be in the Kingdom of God unless they repent of and turn from that sin.
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I agree. A person cannot be a homosexual and a Christian at the same time. By the same standard then a person cannot be covetous and be a Christian at the same time. Are you covetous?
    DHK
     
  16. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    I agree. A person cannot be a homosexual and a Christian at the same time. By the same standard then a person cannot be covetous and be a Christian at the same time. Are you covetous?
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]No I am not covetous, and I am gald that you agree with the bible.
     
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