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Christians can miss the kingdom, and go to hell for 1,000 years

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Bartholomew, Mar 2, 2003.

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  1. hsmom3

    hsmom3 New Member

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    Bartholomew,

    Thank you so much for posting this. I am still trying to comprehend it. It's very hard for me to believe that it could be true, but according the Scriptures you have shared here (and in your article), it does seem to be so. I would love to see a good (and NICE...lol) debate with others here who have more wisdom in this than I.

    hsmom3
     
    #41 hsmom3, Mar 14, 2003
  2. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    ... just because it may fly in the face of what we have always been led to believe, that doesn't make it wrong. </font>[/QUOTE]Hey, friend, did you ever entertain the thought that II Cor. 5 is the judgment of the saints at the bema seat of Christ and that Rev. 20 is the Great White throne judgment of all whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life?

    If one Chritian believer ever goes to hell, even for a DAY, the Bible is a lie, Jesus is a liar, and many have preached the lie.

    Perhaps the following verses need to be read slowly and carefully: Gal. 1:6. I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
    7. which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
    9. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

    Rufus :(

    [ March 15, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: rufus ]
     
    #42 rufus, Mar 14, 2003
  3. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    Hello Rufus,
    Yep; that what it says, and that's what I believe! And look what it says:

    For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; (2 Cor 5:10&11a).

    Why have terror of God at the bema (judgement) seat if we can only be rewarded there? We will recieve according to our works, even if that means bad...
    Well, it's the judgement of ALL the dead. I used to think it was limited only to unbelievers, but that only follows if you ASSUME that ALL believers have part in the FIRST ressurection. But there is nothing in the Bible to justify this. On the contrary,

    And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev 20:11&20)

    Why open the book of life if only unbelievers are standing there?

    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)

    Again, this statement really doesn't mean anything unless there are people written in the book of life there. The clear implication is that there are some believers being judged there (and according to verse 13 this is when they come out of hell).
    I agree with the second part of your statement, but not the first. Jesus warned those he had just called the "light of the world", and said "blessed be...":

    But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matt 5:22. Also check out Matt 18:21-35, and the other verses I listed in my first post.)
    However, the gospel the early Christians had recieved taught that they could miss the kingdom and spend the millennium in hell. We cannot allow our tradition to dictate what is true. Why not check out the scriptures I refered to in my first post? In fact, nobody seems to have even attempted to answer them. I'd be grateful if you could show me why I'm wrong (though I don't believe I am) [​IMG]

    Your friend and brother,

    Bartholomew
     
    #43 Bartholomew, Mar 15, 2003
  4. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Hey Brother Bart,
    Good to find you again. Praise God that you are still defending the doctrines of the kingdom! BTW, This board seems to have much more of a "Berean" spirit to it. So until someone comes up with a better argument than, "You are a heretic", keep preaching it. Let the word of God be true and every man a liar.

    Pastor Lacy Evans
    www.harvestbaptistofmidland.org
     
    #44 Lacy Evans, Mar 15, 2003
  5. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    Hi Brother Lacy [​IMG]

    Thanks for coming! They must be wondering where all us "heretics" are coming from! [​IMG] [​IMG] But seriously, if you and Jim chipping in has shown people that it isn't just some wacky idea I invented, and that people therefore need to study to see if these things really are so, then praise God! One thing's for sure: it's no good waiting until the judgement seat to make a stand on this issue... :(
     
    #45 Bartholomew, Mar 15, 2003
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Premillennialism keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. [​IMG]
     
    #46 KenH, Mar 15, 2003
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Since I am amil partial preterist I don't see how I can miss the kingdom that I am already in... Jesus Christ paid for the sins of all the Father gave him on Calvary... The ones he paid for are judged through him and since he took their place there is no judgement... The judgement only falls on those he didn't die for and the scriptures strongly emphasize that... The problem is these false doctrines look good on the surface but they are like the whitened tomb that Jesus warned his followers about... They are full of dead mens bones and there is no life in them... Could be two-seedism... soul sleep... or any other hair brained doctrine that has been fought before... But one thing I know... It's not Bible!... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist :eek:
     
    #47 tyndale1946, Mar 15, 2003
  8. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

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    Hello, Bartholomew!

    I am pre-trib, and I think you are absolutely right about one thing. I do consider this stuff heresy!

    If people can be sent to hell for a thousand years, doesn't that mean that the Catholic idea of purgatory isn't so far off-base?

    Beside, the lake of fire spoken of in Revelation 20 will be created after Christ's millennial reign, not at its start.

    I think you need to really look at what the Bible has to say about this topic...
     
    #48 Keith M, Mar 15, 2003
  9. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Dear Brother Glen,

    You Said,

    The ones he paid for are judged through him and since he took their place there is no judgement... The judgement only falls on those he didn't die for and the scriptures strongly emphasize that . . .


    The Bible says:


    KJV Hebrews 10:28-31
    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Please show me one verse that says Christains cannot be judged as sons and thereby chastened for their disobedience. It is time we put down our prejudices and pre-conceptions and get back to the Bible. I hear you guys screaming, "heresy" but I dont see your proofs. It is a hard thing, I understand. Believe me. But I have looked at both sides and I cannot refute it. At least give it some prayerful consideration. (Prov 18:13)

    In Christ, Lacy Evans

    [ March 15, 2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Lacy Evans ]
     
    #49 Lacy Evans, Mar 15, 2003
  10. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    Purgatory is false, but has its roots in the truth (just like the mass). I answered this objection more fully in the second-to-last message on page 2 of this thread - please read it there.
    Although I disagree with you (because the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire before the 1,000 years!), I can't see how this is relevant. There is a danger that Christians will spend the millennium in hell; not the lake of fire! The two are quite different: hell exists now and will do during he millennium. However, at the end of the millennium, all the dead will rise out of hell, and hell itself will be cast into the lake of fire. The two are different!

    "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Rev 20:13&14)
    I already have; and that was the reason I had to ignore my tradition and embrace this doctrine. Besides, I have posted lots of different Bible verses to back up this view (there are plenty more), but nobody has told me why I'm wrong. If the Bible really doesn't teach this, why isn't anyone answering these verses??? Please don't assume this is non-biblical just because you haven't heard it before.

    Your friend and brother,

    Bartholomew
     
    #50 Bartholomew, Mar 16, 2003
  11. er1001

    er1001 New Member

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    :confused: I have been watching this thread for a while and have decided to add my two cents also;
    Every time I run across a group which teach we can do something which will add to the finished work of Christ I get nervous!!!!!!!
    I believe that God in his wisdom saw it necessary to send his Son to pay the price for ALL Sin.Always when something is judged good or bad there is always a thin line dividing the two.Because God hates all sin there is no dividind line.He accepts only perfection,which Christ could supply.
    The thought that some believers might be worthy to serve with Him in the kingdom and some in need of hell's torture flies in the face of all i've ever been taught :confused: .I have an Armenian friend who is continually worried about maybe going to bed with unconfessed sin and waking up in hell.My response is,the sins you consider worthy of judgment and those not are in God's eyes the same,James 2/10.
    All our works done on this earth while we wait for Him to return will be reviewed at the judgment seat of Christ to see if they be gold,silver or precious stones or wood,hay and stubble,1st Cor 3/12.
    Those who preach that sin done while the church waits for Christ's coming worthy of hell's torture,even if only for a short time,no matter what denomination or group,use it as a way to keep thier followers under a law and in line:( :( TOO BAD Why not let the Holy Spirit do that.
    Have a great day in the LORD,this is a day that the Lord has made "Amen" ER
     
    #51 er1001, Mar 17, 2003
  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I have one question to ask you Lacy... If Christ died for our sins on the cross... What sins do we have to answer for?... If we have to answer for any then his sacrifice for all the Father gave the Son Jesus The Christ was not finished... Even when Christ said it was... IT IS FINISHED!

    I agree that sons can be punished for their disobedience... But the loving kindness of God he will not utterly take away... That you seem to imply in judgement which you say is eternal which I say is not... God will not throw away his people which he foreknew... David was comforted by the rod and the staff... Gods people will always be his people through all their faults and failures... Some will never be and all is in Gods hands... HE WILL SAVE ALL HIS CHILDREN!... And all the demons... devils... his angels... and the very host of hell... Satan cannot prevent it!... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
    #52 tyndale1946, Mar 17, 2003
  13. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    Ignoring immediate contexts, collapsing contexts, overspecification of terms, speculative readings of predictive prophecies, confused definitions, ignoring alternative explanations, the obvious fallacy, supplementing biblical authority and fallacios reasoning have led some people to believe in a hererical doctrine.

    I firmly affirm my disagreement with the error that began this thread.

    rufus :(
     
    #53 rufus, Mar 17, 2003
  14. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    Hello, er1001 [​IMG]
    Everyone thinks we can add to Jesus' work on the cross. Did Jesus go and change my next-door neighbour's light bulb? Did he go and talk to that student all alone at the dinner table? Did he go and tell the gospel to tourists in London? No. We're supposed to do lots of things as Christians, but Jesus didn't do them on the cross. However, if you mean you get worried when people try to add something to eternal salvation other than what Jesus did on the cross, then I totally agree with you! [​IMG] An individual is saved in all eternity just by believing that Jesus is the only way to put him right with God. That's it! It doesn't matter if he goes and kills someone every day for the rest of his life; Jesus paid for his sin on the cross, and he will be raised up to live forever on the last day. HOWEVER, God can and will punish such an individual for such disobedience before the last day. Most people teach that such punishment is limited to this life. However, the Bible ascribes such punihment to the millennial kingdom as well. As for adding to Christ's work, most agree that Christians can be rewarded for good works; and it is my belief that millennial reign is simply an example of this.
    I agree. But God punishes believers:

    "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth... As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Rev 3:14-16,19)

    So, God must be able to see our bad deeds and punish them in this life, before the last day. That being so, there is no reason why he cannot punish them during the millennium, too. On the contrary, scripture specifically ascribes Chrsitian punishment to the millennial kingdom.
    That is the problem: so many either do not or will not know and teach this truth - I know exactly how hard it is to abandon all we've ever been taught on this subject. But let God be true, and every man a liar...
    Exaclty! But what happens to those whose works were stubble? A Christian can recieve "bad" at the judgement seat as well as "good"; and Paul gave this as the reason for being terrified of God! (2 Cor 5:10&11).
    1. Although this could be true for some that teach this (though I would ask what evidence you have for this accusation?), it doesn't make it wrong.
    2. Jesus used this teaching to keep John in line in Mark 9.
    3. Isn't this one of the methods the Holy Spirit can use? Doesn't the Holy Spirit communicate to us via the Bible? And what did Jesus say in Luke 12:4&5?

    "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

    I ask that you "search the scriptures", to see whether these things are so.

    Your friend and brother,

    Bartholomew
     
    #54 Bartholomew, Mar 17, 2003
  15. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    Hello Bro. Glen!
    Well, I'm not Lacy [​IMG] , but the sins we can be punished for in the millennium are the same sins we can be punished for in this life. If you want a list, why not start at Gal 5:19-21? (there are other lists...)

    "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
    Sorry, Bro, but that is where you misunderstand. We are arguing that Christians may be punished for the duration of the kingdom: 1000 years. This is not infinitely long punishment. At the end of the kingdom, all the dead will stand before God, and all those whose names are written in the book of life will be accepted into the New Heaven and New Earth, and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes (Rev 20&21). And you are right: the Devil cannot snatch our eternal, infinite salvation away! But he can punish us for our wrong-doings before that time!
     
    #55 Bartholomew, Mar 17, 2003
  16. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    Hey, Brother, this is getting rather annoying. If I really am guilty of all you accuse me; if scripture really doesn't teach what I claim it does; then why won't you deal with the scriptures I quote and show me why my understanding is wrong??? I have referred to, and directly quoted, many throughout this thread (e.g. my first post) - why not pick a couple and show me how I'm guilty of the above malpractices, and why I'm wrong? The more people cry "heresy" without dealing with the scriptures we advance, the more it will prove that scripture strongly affirms our position.

    Your friend and brother,

    Bartholomew
     
    #56 Bartholomew, Mar 17, 2003
  17. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Them there's some great-o-big-o words friend. Please remember that some of us are Texans and have problems with seven sylable words [​IMG]

    In Christ, Lacy
     
    #57 Lacy Evans, Mar 17, 2003
  18. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    #58 C.S. Murphy, Mar 17, 2003
  19. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    There is a "justification" by works for the Saved. (James 2:1,24) For me, there is no contradiction. You are not "made righteous" by your works. You are made righteous by Christ's work alone! But how can you be judged as a "good and faithful servant" if you were neither good or faithful in your deeds?

    Consider: Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell , behold, thou art there .

    God is not daunted by hell's flames. I remind you we hold that the person in Hell (temporarily) is born again. In that way he is eternally present with the Lord. When I spank my boys, they are still "Present" with me. You may think a 1000 year spanking is a bit harsh but I don't recall my daddy ever giving me a choice. Here are the house rules Here are the consequences for breaking them.

    Those "administering the doctrine" are scared too! Believe me!

    KJV 2 Corinthians 5:10-11 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

    Pastor Lacy Evans
     
    #59 Lacy Evans, Mar 18, 2003
  20. er1001

    er1001 New Member

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    Bro Bartholomew, it is plain to see that you are sold on the above idea that christians may have to spend 1000 yrs in hell as chastisement for their sins committed since they were saved.We could probably debate this subject for the next 1000 yrs and both walk away disagreeing.
    However let me say this,I was listening to a message by the Late J Harold Smith,who was a well respected southern baptist preacher.The message was called God's three deadlines.I feel this tape answers the question,using the bible properly,what happens to the believer when he or she willfully sins.
    Also a message by the Late Dr Jack Hyles declares that inside " Christianity today" are 4 basic positions.1st theres the Pope who feel he can get direct revelation from God and therefore change church doctrine,which he has from time to time since the Catholic church was formed;2nd theres human reasoning,a position held by protestant liberal churches,which reason away God's word.3rd theres human experience which is used to overrule the bible,Its feels good so it must be right.Last theres the fundamental crowd who feel they must have the finished word of God ,every jot and every tittle,too guide thier lives.
    Both tapes have helped me a great deal.
    I guess the best advice ever presented to me is that we as Christians are to study to show ourselves approved unto God,a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,rightly dividing the word of truth 2nd Tim 2/15.
    ALL SCRIPTURE IS FOR US BUT NOT ALL NECESSARILY WRITTEN TO US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    When God is talking to Israel,they should listen,to the lost likewise and when he talks to us we had better pay attention.when these get mixed up all kinds out Doctrinal problems pop up.
    I appreciate this discussion it helps all those involved to dig in study things out Amen [​IMG] ER
     
    #60 er1001, Mar 18, 2003
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