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Christians or Israel

Discussion in 'Polls Forum' started by OldRegular, Jan 6, 2006.

?
  1. Israel

    72.7%
  2. Christians

    27.3%
  3. Neither

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    I agree! :D :D </font>[/QUOTE]Okay OldRegular--

    By agreeing with pinoybaptist, you just admitted that you also believe that the Church REPLACED national Israel. You teach Replacement Theology.

    Here is one of your posts, dated December 31,2005 where you stated that the Church did not replace national Israel:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/3207/8.html?

    Which is it, OldRegular--is God finished with national Israel? YOU are saying two different things here.
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I agree! :D :D </font>[/QUOTE]Okay OldRegular--

    By agreeing with pinoybaptist, you just admitted that you also believe that the Church REPLACED national Israel. You teach Replacement Theology.

    Here is one of your posts, dated December 31,2005 where you stated that the Church did not replace national Israel:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/3207/8.html?

    Which is it, OldRegular--is God finished with national Israel? YOU are saying two different things here.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Don't blame me for your inabiliy to understand spiritual truths. The purpose of the calling out of Abraham, Jacob or Israel, Judah, and so on was to bring the Redeemer into the world, therefore, fulfilling Genesis 3:15. Once that purpose was completed the task of the descendants of Judah, the Jews, was complete and they stand before God just the same as all men in need of redemption.
     
  3. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor New Member

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    Linda wrote:
    Linda,
    Wouldn't you have to believe someone replaced someoneelse to be guilty of this?

    Did anyone replace Peter, or Stephen, or Paul?
    Did they ever get kicked out? No.

    What about all of the other thousands of people of Jewish ancestry who have come to saving grace through Jesus Christ over the centuries?

    Do any of them get replaced? No.

    Well.......

    What about Herod, or Caiaphus, or Judas Iscariot?
    They were Jews....are they God's Chosen People solely because of their bloodline even though they reject and deny God and call Him a liar?


    I guess I missed your explanation of which child of God, redeemed by the blood of the lamb, is ever replaced by anyone?

    And how any lost, rejectant, wicked, evil, unrepentant, Christ mocker could ever be claimed to be a child of God. Christ sure didn't call them His children; rather He called them of their father the Devil.


    If Jesus Christ isn't the measuring stick; then how can any truth be measured?
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Linda forgets that the members of the first New Testament Church were all Jews. The 3000 Jews saved at Pentecost were added to the Church.
     
  5. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor New Member

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    I not as concerned with who comprises who, as much as what seems to be the idea that people who reject, deny, hate, and don't believe in Christ somehow are to be considered Christ's Chosen people.

    Christ called those who don't believe Him liars, vipers, and children of the Devil; not of the Heavenly Father. Yet, there appears to be a fairly sizeable group of people in this century who would think that even in light of that, they can still belong to God.

    Didn't the Apostle John make this abundantly clear when he wrote in his 2nd epistle:

    "1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
     
  6. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    Like I have said in previous posts--believing Jews and believing Gentiles are the CHURCH---Israel as a NATION, rejected Christ as their Messiah. Israel as a NATION, will accept Christ as Messiah at the end of the tribulation:

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Romans 11:25-27)

    I never denied that the first NT church was Jewish--what you are assuming, OldRegular, is that the first NT Church was a continuation of NATIONAL Israel--and what I am saying is that NATIONAL Israel and the NT Church are 2 different entities. God has NOT forsaken NATIONAL Israel and replaced it with the Church. This is what you are teaching, no matter how you cut it.

    Dave Taylor:
    Dave, you apparently have no clue what Replacement Theology teaches. Check out this site, it might help you understand what I am trying to explain.

    http://www.biblicist.org/bible/replace.shtml
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Linda, Linda, Linda!

    How many times must I tell you that I have never said that the Church is a continuation of natural Israel. It is not, the Church is a continuation of Spiritual Israel. As the Apostle Paul tells us of those who were Spiritual Israel of the Old Covenant:

    Romans 2:28-29, KJV
    28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


    The Apostle Paul speaks similarily of the believing Gentiles:

    9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


    The relation of natural Israel to God is the same as that of any other people; lost without Jesus Christ.

    [ January 14, 2006, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: OldRegular ]
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting how Jesus Christ described these people:

    John 8:38-56

    39. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
    40. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
    41. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
    42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
    43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    44. Ye are of your father the DEVIL, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    45. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
    46. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
    47. He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
    48. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
    49. Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
    50. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
    51. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
    52. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
    53. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
    54. Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
    55. Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
    56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
     
  9. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    OldRegular--

    I did a search for the words "spiritual Israel" in my concordance, my Bible software, in my topical Bible--the words do not exist in the context you have quoted. There is NO such thing as Spiritual Israel. If you believe that Spiritual Israel is Biblical--show me where.

    The verses you quoted above describe believing Jews--it says NOTHING about the Church being a continuation of this. You just refuse to believe that the Church (believing Jews and Gentiles) is a separate entity from National Israel. Do you believe that God still has a plan for National Israel? Or do you believe that the Church, as a continuation of "Spiritual Israel" (which doesn't exist in the Bible) has replaced National Israel? Do you believe that God has rejected Israel as a Nation?
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Linda64:

    I did a search of the word Rapture in my Bible, in crosswalk, in my concordance, and did not find the word there.

    Do you have a Scripture that uses the word Rapture ?
     
  11. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    Then &lt;epeita&gt; we &lt;hemeis&gt; which &lt;ho&gt; are alive &lt;zao&gt; and remain &lt;perileipo&gt; shall be caught up &lt;harpazo&gt; together &lt;hama&gt; with &lt;sun&gt; them &lt;autos&gt; in &lt;en&gt; the clouds &lt;nephele&gt;, to &lt;eis&gt; meet &lt;apantesis&gt; the Lord &lt;kurios&gt; in &lt;eis&gt; the air &lt;aer&gt;: and &lt;kai&gt; so &lt;houto&gt; shall we &lt;esomai&gt; ever &lt;pantote&gt; be &lt;esomai&gt; with &lt;sun&gt; the Lord &lt;kurios&gt;. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

    caught up &lt;harpazo&gt;

    726. harpazo
    Search for G726 in KJVSL
    arpazw harpazo har-pad'-zo

    from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

    See Greek 138


    Although the word Rapture isn't in the Bible, the Greek word harpazo means the same thing. There is no "spiritual Israel" in the Bible, as it is used in Replacement Theology--that the Church is a continuation of "Spiritual Israel" --but there is a Rapture in the Bible.
     
  12. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    From Webster's 1828 Dictionary

    rapture

    RAP'TURE, n. L. raptus, rapio.

    1. A seizing by violence. Little used.

    2. Transport; ecstasy; violence of a pleasing passion; extreme joy or pleasure.

    Music when thus applied, raises in the mind of the hearer great conceptions; it strengthens devotion and advances praise into rapture.

    3. Rapidity with violence; a hurrying along with velocity; as rolling with torrent rapture.

    4. Enthusiasm; uncommon heat of imagination.

    You grow correct, that once with rapture writ.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    OldRegular--

    I did a search for the words "spiritual Israel" in my concordance, my Bible software, in my topical Bible--the words do not exist in the context you have quoted. There is NO such thing as Spiritual Israel. If you believe that Spiritual Israel is Biblical--show me where.

    The verses you quoted above describe believing Jews--it says NOTHING about the Church being a continuation of this. You just refuse to believe that the Church (believing Jews and Gentiles) is a separate entity from National Israel. Do you believe that God still has a plan for National Israel? Or do you believe that the Church, as a continuation of "Spiritual Israel" (which doesn't exist in the Bible) has replaced National Israel? Do you believe that God has rejected Israel as a Nation?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Linda! Linda! Linda

    I have never claimed that the words spiritual Israel appears in the Bible. There are a lot of words that do not appear in the Bible, Southern Baptist for example. Would you argue there are no Southern Baptists?

    Spiritual Israel in the Old Testament consisted of the true believers. An example of spiritual Israel in the Old Testament is the 7000 mentioned in 1 Kings19:18 who had not bowed the knee to Baal. Also please tell me who Paul is talking about in the passage I quoted from Romans repeated below?

    Romans 2:28-29, KJV
    28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
     
  14. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    OldRegular--

    You still haven't answered my questions:

    Do you believe that God still has a plan for National Israel? Or do you believe that the Church, as a continuation of "Spiritual Israel" has replaced National Israel? Do you believe that God has rejected Israel as a Nation?
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Linda

    Let Scripture Speak:

    Matthew 21:33-43
    33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
    34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
    35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
    36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
    37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
    38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
    39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
    40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
    41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
    42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
    44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
    45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.


    Acts 28:25-28
    25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
    26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
    27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.


    Any Jew/Israelite who is saved will be saved the same way that anyone else is saved. Since there will be no millennial kingdom as dispensationalists perceive it any question regarding National Israel is moot.
     
  16. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
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    Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
    Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:


    Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
    Gen 35:12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

    1 These covenants with A & I are "no strings attached"; therefore no argument that the church has replaced Israel as a nation in God's plan will hold water.
    2 Yes, to be saved the Jew must accept the rejected messiah as we did; no relation to the NATION of Israel as per God's covenants.
    3 IF national Israel is no longer in God's plans (they have never to date occupied the lands promised A & I) then God's word was no good to A & I
    4 If you isolate the comments of Paul, then yes Israel has been replace by the church; BUT if all are read IN CONTEXT, and all he said re: Israel, then it will be seen that he is very adamant that God IS NOT through with NATION Israel.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Then &lt;epeita&gt; we &lt;hemeis&gt; which &lt;ho&gt; are alive &lt;zao&gt; and remain &lt;perileipo&gt; shall be caught up &lt;harpazo&gt; together &lt;hama&gt; with &lt;sun&gt; them &lt;autos&gt; in &lt;en&gt; the clouds &lt;nephele&gt;, to &lt;eis&gt; meet &lt;apantesis&gt; the Lord &lt;kurios&gt; in &lt;eis&gt; the air &lt;aer&gt;: and &lt;kai&gt; so &lt;houto&gt; shall we &lt;esomai&gt; ever &lt;pantote&gt; be &lt;esomai&gt; with &lt;sun&gt; the Lord &lt;kurios&gt;. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

    caught up &lt;harpazo&gt;

    726. harpazo
    Search for G726 in KJVSL
    arpazw harpazo har-pad'-zo

    from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

    See Greek 138


    Although the word Rapture isn't in the Bible, the Greek word harpazo means the same thing. There is no "spiritual Israel" in the Bible, as it is used in Replacement Theology--that the Church is a continuation of "Spiritual Israel" --but there is a Rapture in the Bible.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Give me a Scripture that uses the word Rapture, Linda. Not a substitute word, or a like word.

    The point being that while the word Rapture may not be found in the Bible, the principle, the doctrine, is.

    National Israel is a nation that was used by God to illustrate His relationship with His people, the true Israel, hidden from view, and scattered all over the world, from the very beginning, even before He called Abraham and started a physical Israel.

    He could have used the Eskimos, or He could have used any other nation. Remember that His word recounts a statement where it was said God is able to raise out of these stones children to Abraham.

    He created Israel from the loins of one man, Abraham, out of whom the Messiah was to be a descendant, a Messiah that was to redeem His elect children, whom He foreknew from before the foundation of the world, and lost in time because of the transgression of Adam.

    After the crucifixion, in which all that needed to be redeemed were redeemed and brought to vital union with their Creator through Christ, all the lost children of God, whom Old Regular calls Spiritual Israel, were brought home, from all points of the globe.

    They were all brought under One Shepherd, all effectually called, and each one to be regenerated in God's own time. These are Spiritual Truths scattered all over the Bible, which Paul, writing to Gentile and Jew Christians in Rome, said was written for our learning.

    I understand you are a Jew, and these things seem offensive to you, but, all these is being said with no disrespect to you or anyone else.

    After the cross, Israel is just one among the many nations whom God will judge by Christ Jesus, no special treatment, no special relationships, it's over.

    Only the remnant in Physical Israel will be brought to Christ.
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    pinoybaptist

    Good post! [​IMG]
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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  20. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor New Member

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    just-want-peace wrote:
    Scripture disagrees with this assessment above.

    "Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them." Joshua 1:6

    "So the Lord gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. And the Lord gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hand. Not one of the good promises which the Lord had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass." Joshua 21:43-45

    "Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the Lord your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed." Joshua 23: 14

    "And Thou didst find his Abram's heart faithful before Thee, And didst make a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite, and the Girgashite - To give it to his descendants. And Thou has fulfilled Thy promise, For Thou art righteous." Nehemiah 9:8

    "You made their sons as numerous as the stars in the sky, and you brought them into the land that you told their fathers to enter and possess." Nehemiah 9:22-23

    "Through your own fault you will lose the inheritance I gave you. I will enslave you to your enemies in a land you do not know, for you have kindled my anger, and it will burn forever." Jeremiah 17:4

    "Turn from evil and do good; then you will dwell in the land forever. For the Lord loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off; the righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever." Psalms 37:27

    John 8:31
    "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."


    Does Jesus know who God's Chosen People are?
     
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