Christmas Hypocrites

Derivations of words and meanings of words are two different things. Most of us recognize that, yet that is where this confusion arises. For reasons already posted, I do not celebrate Christmas: its pagan roots, customs, its commercialism, the fact the Christ was never born on the Dec.25, the Catholic name "Christmas", etc. There are many reasons, and certainly they are not all anti-Catholic.
Analyze a few words of the English language:
Sunday: It means "day of the Sun" or the day that people worship the Sun; and so all the days of the week are named thusly.
Christmas means mass of Christ. I will give you the definition of mass as you said. Most people don't look beyond a superficial derivation. To me the most it ever meant was mass of Christ. But to most people it doesn't even mean that. It might mean to some: the time of the birthday of Christ, but to most: a holiday season at the end of December.
As a former Catholic I knew what the mass was about. It is called the "sacrifice of the mass." It is the sacrificing of the blood and flesh of Jesus. It is an actual sacrifice. That is what transubstantiation is all about, and why the protestants abhor it so much. It is blasphemy. However, when we fit that into the equation, then to a Baptist or protestant, the mass is the death or sacrifice of Christ. Let's not talk about the exact derivation of the word here, but what the word means to us.
Just as the word "Sunday" may mean "first day of the week," or "day of resurrection," or "day we worship," and not "day of the worship of the Sun," as it originally meant; so mass is the death and sacrifice of Christ to most people, celebrated by Catholics.
If you were to tell a person that mass is "go, it is the dismissal," they would say "HUH??" We don't speak according to derivations, but according to what the words mean in our current lingo. In the current usage of the word mass, as the sacrifice of the mass, meaning the sacrifice of the blood and flesh of Christ, death is not an inappropriate word. "Have a Merry XDeath"
DHK

 

DHK,

A website that refers to the Catholic Church as the "scarlet harlot" is not objective. It is a site that hates the Church and believes it is evil, and therefore will go to great lengths to destroy her.

An objective site would prove it using objective sources ALONE. The author clearly provides a boatload of his own explanation to prove his point.

But, you know what? I'm not even going to jump in this argument on what "Christmas" means, because you've already made up your mind, and we're back at the same senseless attacks on personality that we always end up at.

God bless you, and I'm so sorry that you're going to miss out on a wonderful Mass of Christ. I'll certainly be there, to be united with my Lord and Savior, and be present at that one and same sacrifice that Our Lord offered for our redemption.

Ain't nothin' else like it.

Grant

 

Hey Grant,

I'll be there with you. I'll be at the Midnight Mass and then again at 9:30 in the morning. Isn't it great that Jesus left us such a marvelous gift as the Mass?

DHK,

Does your family celebrate birthdays? If a family adopted a child and wasn't sure of his/her exact birthdate, should they choose not celebrate his/her birth at all?

We don't know when Jesus was born. Dec. 25 is the date the Church chose to CELEBRATE the birth of Christ. Yes, we say the "sacrifice of the Mass", but it is also called the "celebration of the Mass."

Did you ever wonder why in Revelation, there is an altar in Heaven? After all, altars have only one purpose---Sacrifice.

BTW, my kids have always known that Christmas is firstly about Jesus and his birth. They know the story of Bishop St. Nicholas and they also know that the "Coca-Cola" picture of "Santa" was fabricated in the early Nineteenth Century and that THAT version of the Christmas Story is totally bogus.

God Bless

 

Hi All!, This thread has gone in so many directions I am not sure what I want to say. What I will say is this, Legalism NEVER produces happiness. It produces bitterness which is sin. Some Christians don't celebrate Christmas to "prove" how Godly they are. You have to understand that God knows our heart already! You can't draw closer to him by not having a Christmas tree. Whether you give your brother a present or not has no bearing on your "heart" standing before God. Worry more this Christmas about serving God by being a blessing to someone else, not some stick in the mud that turns his nose up at every colored light. I love Christmas and the trees and the lights and even the Christmas specials on TV. (I only wish I had time to watch the specials). Enjoy the season confident that Jesus has come to this earth to forgive our sin, and our(anyones) only job is to not drop the present as it is handed to us. I have received that gift. Wow, what a Savior, and we sit here and argue about Christmas. How odd that is. There is a cantada called:

"Love came down on Christmas" (I think that is it)

Do we believe that? Love came down is a great thought.

Merry Christmas to all, Go sip some egg nog by the fire, next to your Christmas tree, and watch Charlie Browns Christmas, it doesn't get much better then that

In Christian Love,
Brian

[ December 16, 2002, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

This isn't an issue of catholics being right or wrong, it's an issue with the information about catholicism being right or wrong. It's being stated that the word "mass" in latin means death. Mass doesn't mean death, morte means death.

When someone hangs their position on such a hook, and proceeds to defend that hook so profusely, it ruins their credibility, and beings the remainder of the posted material into question.

 

Well said, John.

 

Yes we celebrate birthdays, and New Year's too. They are not religious holidays. They are not "Christian" holidays weighted down with pagan customs. I don't celebrate the mass on my child's birthday.

It is also called the sacrifice of the mass. The entire mass revolves around the communion service: the sacrifice of the flesh and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ--transubstantiation.
The date imposed by the Catholic Church was imposed because of a pagan Holiday (the worship of the Sun) which Christmas conveniently took the place of. It is placed on Dec. 25 because that is the day that they worship the Sun. How convenient!
DHK

[ December 16, 2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

It is perhaps the most religious holiday that we have. We live in a secular humanistic country, unlike India (a religious but primarily Hindu nation), or Pakistan (a religious but an Islamic Republic). We do not live in a Christian nation. Yet is a relgious holiday, for it speaks to the birth of Jesus Christ. In many malls you hear carols piping in music: "O Come All Ye Faithful," "O Little Town of Bethlehem," "Angels We Have Heard on High," "Hark the Herald Angels Sing," "Silent Night, Holy Night," "Joy to the World," etc.
Please do not tell me these are non-religious, non-Christian songs. They are used by the commercial businesses to play on the emotions of people at this time to purchase their goods. And yet, at the same time, I am thankful that the gospel goes forth in some manner during this season as these carols are sung. But you cannot escape the inevitable fact: it is a religious holiday. In this religious holiday--supposedly Christian--are steeped with many pagan customs. The Bible says: "Learn not the way of the heathen." It also says: "Come out from among them and be separate saith the Lord and touch not the unclean thing."
I, for one, will not decorate my house with a Christmas tree or Christmas lights, but would rather use the opportunity to get together with family, and be a witness during this time when peoples hearts may be open to the gospel more than at any other time in the year.
DHK

 

Derivations of words and meanings of words are two different things. Most of us recognize that, yet that is where this confusion arises. For reasons already posted, I do not celebrate Christmas: its pagan roots, customs, its commercialism, the fact the Christ was never born on the Dec.25, the Catholic name "Christmas", etc.

As noted then, you better not celebrate that Jesus the Christ died for your sins, because long before there was the One Who is Truth and did such, paganism recorded 16 Crucified Saviors. Hope you don't wear a wedding ring. That is straight out of paganism. So is the concept of the Trinity (triadic godhead0>

Are you getting the point, or do I have to spell it out for you? The pagans, having no direct revelation from God, were stumbling around in the dark. As they groped for the Truth, they would uncover little bits and pieces of it here and there. It took Jesus the Christ to bring the full and complete revelation of that Truth to mankind, and even then, there are still many who do not understand it.

There are many reasons, and certainly they are not all anti-Catholic.

Sure they are. The Catholic Church, which the final voice of authority in Christendom as established by our Lord in His giving of authority, infallibility, and power to the apostles, HAS SPOKEN.

ROMA LOCUTA EST. LA CAUSA FINITE. (Rome has spoken. The matter is ended!) But that is not good enough for you, because you wish to be your own authority. Well, good for you. You think you have found something terribly damning in the practices of Christmas. The Church has selected a date and said that the practices of Christmas are acceptable. That is all I need to know, since the Church is my spiritual home, given to me by God.

Analyze a few words of the English language:
Sunday: It means "day of the Sun" or the day that people worship the Sun; and so all the days of the week are named thusly.

Christmas means mass of Christ.

Correct.

I will give you the definition of Mass as you said. Most people don't look beyond a superficial derivation. To me the most it ever meant was mass of Christ. But to most people it doesn't even mean that. It might mean to some: the time of the birthday of Christ, but to most: a holiday season at the end of December.

Yeah. And to most nominal Christians, it is a nice time for partying and getting soe time off.

As a former Catholic I knew what the mass was about.

Nope. Couldn't have. Oh, you might have known the technical terms for it, but to say that you really knew what the Mass is would be like an engaged person saying that he knows all about the honeymoon night just because he can describe it. It ain't the same thing!!

It is called the "sacrifice of the mass." It is the sacrificing of the blood and flesh of Jesus. It is an actual sacrifice.

Yup. That is right. It is indeed very real, the one and same sacrifice which Christ made upon the Cross of Calvary for the sins of mankind.

That is what transubstantiation is all about, and why the Protestants abhor it so much.

Well, that is certainly not good that the Protestants would abhor the very thing which Jesus says gives eternal life to mankind!! (John 6: 53).

It is blasphemy.

No, it is blasphemy to take God's Word and deny that this is what God said:

Blasphemy (Greek blaptein, "to injure", and pheme, "reputation") signifies etymologically gross irreverence towards any person or thing worthy of exalted esteem. In this broad sense the term is used by Bacon when in his "Advancement of Learning" he speaks of "blasphemy against learning". St. Paul tells of being blasphemed (I Cor., iv, 13) and the Latin Vulgate employs the word blasphemare to designate abusive language directed either against a people at large (II Kings, xxi, 21; I Par., xx, 7) or against individuals (I Cor., x, 30; Tit., iii, 2).

Since Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, the Whole Christ, (and this has been the testimony of the Church for 2000 years) it is not the Catholic and Orthodox who blaspheme God by their reverent treatment of the Holy Mysteries. It is those who deny this truth and say scurrilous things regarding the Euchrist. You are well fortunate that God is extremely longsuffering and not willing that any should perish, especially those who act in ignorance.

However, when we fit that into the equation, then to a Baptist or protestant, the mass is the death or sacrifice of Christ.

No, it is NOT the death of Christ, for Christ only died once. He cannot die again. It is the sacrificial meal of the New Covenant, prefigured in the Passover Lamb. We have the true Lamb to offer for our sins. There is NO DEATH in the Mass. The Mass is the re presenting to God of that which is eternal in Heaven (Rev.5:6). This took place from eternity past (Rev. 13: 8) and will exist for all eternity, as we see by the fact that John the Beloved saw the Lamb slain some 40 years after the chronological fact had taken place on earth. It is a continual sacrifice which makes continual offering to God for our sins. And in the mystery of God, every time the priest speaks the words of consecration over the elements, God is pleased to part time and make that eternal sacrifice very real and present.

If you were to tell a person that mass is "go, it is the dismissal," they would say "HUH??" We don't speak according to derivations, but according to what the words mean in our current lingo. In the current usage of the word mass, as the sacrifice of the mass, meaning the sacrifice of the blood and flesh of Christ, death is not an inappropriate word.

It is a highly inappropriate LIE (sorry, what else would you have me call deliberate untruth) because NNE DIES in the Mass. The eternal sacrifice is made present.

We've been around this block many times, DHK. This is just another of your many efforts to "blacken the eye" of the teachings of the apostolic Church (both Catholic and Orthodox). The weight of historical teaching is against you. The weight of Jesus' words is against you. And the weight of your sins is against you, for without the shedding of blood, there is no remission. If you do not have a blood sacrifice, THE Blood sacrifice, how do you expect God to forgive you and on what basis? Because you think nice thoughts about Jesus? Because you believe that He died upon the Cross for your sins? Well, hey, even the Mormons and JW's believe that.

Mental assent to the facts is NOT the same as experiental union with Him. You need His Blood for your sins, and you need Jesus in the Eucharist to have union with Him.

Brother Ed

 

Likewise, it is not biblically wrong for us to choose to celebrate Jesus' birth on the 25th, if we feel so inclined.

 

Likewise, it is not biblically wrong for us to choose to celebrate Jesus' birth on the 25th, if we feel so inclined.</font>[/QUOTE]Yes it is! God never commanded us to make a Holy Day to celebrate the birth of His Son. Only God makes Holy Days, see Lev 23. The only Christian Holy Day we have now is the Lord's day.

"commandement them not" Jeremiah 7:31

God says in jeremiah 10:2 "Learn not the way of the heathen "

Also see Isaiah 8:20, this verse Roman Catholics ignore.

 

God never commanded us to make a Holy Day to celebrate the birth of His Son. Only God makes Holy Days, see Lev 23. The only Christian Holy Day we have now is the Lord's day.

Does Paul also not say that we are not to be judged according to the holy days we observe? The Lord's day is the Sabbath, and unless you plan on moving it back to Saturday, you're violating it as well.

 

Hi,
Being an un-orthodox Catholic I like to see the Holy Day as "Mans Day" - we should be able to take this day off when we want. Protestant Churches should be more like Catholic ones and have a church service every day for people who want a special day on a Tuesday or whatever - especially if thats the only day they have free.

There should be no slaves. I'm not sure if you are aware but in the 19th Century there was a name change from Master & Servant to Employer & Employee. The Employee relationship is still a form on bond-slavery (especially if you have a mortgage). Its just a name - the relationship is the same

[ December 16, 2002, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]

 

Jeremiah 7:31 says nothing about Jesus' birthday being celebrated.

Lev 23 speaks of how the Israelites were to observe the Sabbath. So unless we are to go back to animal sacrifices every x number of days as commandmed by God in this chapter, I don't see how this is relevant.

Isaiah 8:20 is incredibly generic and ambiguous; so is the reference above.

 

Briguy, you had a really sweet post! I'm with you! I love Christmas time.

The Christmas tree reminds me of Everlasting Life and the Tree on which Jesus died!

The Angel or Star on top of the Christmas tree reminds me of His Star who led the Wisemen and the Angels who announced His Birth to the shepherds.

The colored Christmas lights remind me that Jesus is the Light of the World.

The presents underneath the Christmas tree remind me of God's Greatest Gift, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God. The Greatest Gift of Love!

Colors of Christmas - Red, Green, Purple, Gold, Silver, White - all are beautiful because He made them all! Every good and perfect gift comes from above!

Must things always be about bashing around here?

It seems to me that some people just wanna fight! Where's the Peace, Goodwill to all Men?

From this Baptist to any and all Catholics on this Board: Merry Christmas with Love! And Jesus Loves you, too!