Christmas Mass in Rome

Yes, Kathryn, I do see them, they are permanently part of me, permanently embedded in my spirit. That is because I believe in Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ. HE IS MY SAVIOR!

But, I also saw in that presentation, the opulence in the church, that did not exist in either scene of His birth or in his death! Recognizing that the Wise men did not come to the stable on the night of Jesus' birth but some period of days, weeks or even months later, it is highly unlikely that there was any Gold, Frankincence, or Myrrh, symbols of opulence, in the birth scene at all, the stable probably did not smell of burning incence but rather...well you know. And likewise there were none of those things near the cross either. Although for the burial, there were aeromatic herbs and spices brought to the tomb, but probably no Gold unless Joseph, the rich man who owned the tomb, was wearing some.

But in the Mass, the Pope was wearing a gold gilded robe, and headgear, had something gold draped around his neck. The other particants were decked out in their finery, and the "guests" too. There were Poinsettias (christmas flowers) everywhere, except in a Bethlehem stable. The emplements were gold, the adornment of the building contained a lot of "golden gilding", there was incence burning, there was no straw (clean or otherwise), no cattle were lowing. The Cross was occupied, there was a male figure still on the cross after 2000 years, ...I think you get the picture. The Jesus that I know, love and worship is not in a manger, nor on a cross. HE LIVES! The HOLY SCRIPTURES declare HE LIVES!
But alas, the Catholic church keeps him on the cross!

I'm sorry you cannot see the hypocracy exhibited. I'm sorry you cannot see, the difference between the truth and the depiction.

At any rate, Blessings to you.

 

Yes, dear Kathryn, but scriptures also say that this crucifixion was done Once-for-all. It is not an on-going continuous crucifixion. But was completed from start to finish in one 24 hour period of time 2000 years ago. The dead body of Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ was removed from the cross before the annual celebration took place. It would have been bad form to leave it hanging on the cross. That same body was buried in a borrowed tomb where is rested less that 72 hours when it was resurrected to life by the power of God.

That resurrected body does not remain with us for us to dine upon, but is in it's rightful place at the right hand of God the father. That is why we have substitute elements in the form of bread and wine, representing flesh and blood respectively that are reminders of what Jesus did for us.

The effect and affect of that one out of many, crucifixions continues today but not the crucifixion itself, like what is depicted in the Roman Cross.

May you discover the truth in this coming new year.

 

Well then you worship a DEAD GOD, because it is the Risen Christ that Protestants worship, the one that HOLY SCRIPTURES declare is at the right hand of HIS Father in Heaven.

Protestants also use substitutes; "bread" or wheat wafers, to symbolize the body of Christ; grape juice, or wine to symbolize the Blood of Christ. We consume those after a prayer of consecration by the worship leader. And, yes they do represent the "real body and blood of the Christ" to us. They never become the real body and blood however, except in our intangible spirit where God impresses the 'reality' they represent upon us.

The empty cross of the Protestants is like the bread and wine, a symbol that Jesus is no longer on the cross, it is empty! Some Protestants even use the image of Tomb with the stone that sealed it rolled away, because the tomb in which the Body of Christ was laid, is empty, "He is not here, he is risen"

I'm sure that your bible contains the following:

I'm sure your bible contains this scripture because I took it from the NRSV Catholic edition. A cross from which a body is "taken down" is empty.

 

OK, Kathryn, Since you don't want to accept the truth let's look at more of the continually unfolding story as Luke portrays it.(parens and bold are mine)

Just how high do you think the cross was off the ground? It need be no more than a few inches higher than a man is tall. You'll notice the events: body removed from Cross, carried to and laid out in the tomb, women eye-witnesses view the body in the tomb, the women leave to prepare burial spices, the sabbath with no work, next morning the women return with spices to find the tomb open, the body gone, and "holy" beings testifying as to the whereabouts of a living Jesus. the women run to tell the apostles. So, tell me there is no empty cross. The cross upon which Jesus died became empty when the body was "taken down". The grave became occupied, then the grave became empty because the Jesus that you keep on the cross is alive, there are an estimated 'over 400' eye-witness reports of people who saw Jesus alive after the grave became empty. Therefore, protestants believe that the cross is empty, the grave is empty, and that Jesus ascended to the Father's right hand in Heaven.

The fact that Protestants use the symbol in a standing position, does not change the fact that the cross is empty.

 

The events wrote of by Luke that I posted are not symbolic. They are first person reports of the events as they took place. Luke was writing to Theophilus, an obviously important person in the land.

Luke has nothing to hide in symbolism, Kathryn. What you are reading in Luke 23 and 24 is factual reports.

 

I 100% agree that what Luke described actually happened, and Luke has nothing to hide. The events are real. Luke is not making up symbols. The real events however contain symbolism from God to teach not to hide. You earlier agreed that you understood the symbolic relationship between the manger and the cross. Both the birth of Christ and the death are 100% real, yet contain symbolism. This symbolic relationship isn’t to hide messages, but to teach. You earlier said you understood all that.

There however is no empty cross in this account. You can speculate, but that's all. It's not part of the Bible. Now an empty tomb shows the Resurrection of Christ. I have no problem with Christians using the empty cross, as a symbol, but I don't see any Biblical basis for it. Why do you think symbolism is used to hide things? I don’t think Christians use the symbol of the empty cross to hide anything. It would be used to teach.


God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]Was it traditional to take a body still on the cross of crucifixion and put it in the tomb?

Did Jesus appear to his disciples, after resurrection, still nailed to the wooden cross?

Was Jesus seen ascending to the Father's right hand still nailed to the wooden cross?

If yes, then maybe we've finally uncovered one of those "oral traditions" that Catholocism is so "secretive" about! Of course that would make the written accounts of the first person eyewitnesses completely null and void now wouldn't it? If the eyewitness accounts are made invalid, the the whole of the Holy Scriptures becomes invalid. But that would have no affect on the Catholic church because it has "oral traditions" upon which it relies.

I can see now why God made man the head of the family as Jesus is head of the church! The woman doesn't think things through, and is therefore gullible to any seduction (wind of doctrine)!

 

NO Kathryn we are not in agreement, because you insist that Jesus remains in the state of crucifixion. There are many who were crucified who remain today in a crucified state, that is, dead, but NOT JESUS! The result of Crucifixion is death. Jesus is alive! Did he die? absolutely, but HE was resurrected to life, unencumbered by a wooden cross! There are many eyewitness reports of that truth! Jesus is no longer ON THE CROSS as the Catholic Church portrays Him and indeed insists that he is.

Yes, ALL Protestant churches preach "Christ Crucified" but only as a precursor to "He is Risen". Because for one to be resurrected one must first be dead, and crucifixion was the method by which Jesus died.

Yes, Jesus was known in Heaven before the earth was formed to be the Lamb of God slain. He however, is now known in heaven as "the WORTHY LAMB OF GOD! No longer facing death, but forever receiving honor and Glory for bringing salvation to mankind whom God the father so loves.

Yes, Jesus is the High Priest, in the same manner that Melchisedec was High Priest, meaning that He has the office of High Priest because he is worthy to hold that office because of who and what he is.

Jesus' words tell us that we must die to self in order to serve him. That is, we must take up our own cross in the manner that he took his own cross to Golgotha. The cross that you would have me take up is the one with Jesus still on it, I refuse to take up that cross because I am not worthy to tie the laces of his sandels, let alone carry His cross. Besides we each have our own crosses to bear whether or not we bear them. Jesus never asked us to carry HIS cross.

So, Kathryn, though we may agree on some points, we will never agree that Jesus remains ON THE CROSS! HE DOES NOT! He is seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven, receiving honor and glory from the heavenly hosts. It is insulting to see him in a state of humiliation, which if you are honest in your evaluation, is the purpose of the Roman cross, the cross that the Catholic church so proudly displays with the figure of a man there on.

I really hope you will consider this truth.

 

Then why the staunch defense of the Roman Cross with the male figure hanging on it? If your Jesus is risen, take him off the cross!