Christology

No, I disagree that Yehowah is Yeshuah.

One good thing of your approach is the emphasis of Deity of Jesus.

Another thing is that Jesus worked quite a lot in OT times.
When Jesus was here on Earth, He explained about Himself shown in the Bible, Book of Moses, Prophets, Psalms. In other words, there are many verses which Jesus explained Disciples about Himself in OT but we do not find many of them yet.

Now the problem of your theology is that you equate Jehovah with Jesus, which cause too much expansion of doctrines from Trinity.
There are some limits in Trinity because Human syllogism doesn't work there.
For example, RCC brings Theotokos that Mary is Mother of God from Trinity.
But it contradicts Trinity itself as Mary is not the Mother of God the Father, nor the mother of God the Holy Spirit. Then was she Mother of God the Son at the time of Creation? No. Then was Jesus not the Creator of Mary? Yes! Did Jesus get any divinity from Mary? NOPE!

Your expansion of Trinity exceeding the Biblical expression, other than what the Bible says will cause unnecessary arguments, Friendly Fire, etc.


Now we can review Isaiah 53

1) verse 1.
Was the Arm of Johavah the same as Jehovah Himself? If so, why didn't Bible state that Jehovah showed and suffered.
Is the arm of BGTF the same as BGTF? You may be amputated, but you are still BGTF.

In OT so many verses equates Jehovah as God. But there is no other equation unless there is a specific statement like Gn 31:11-13.

2) verse 10
And it pleased LORD to bruise him; He hath put him to grief. When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see (his) seed. He shall prolong (his) days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

(Interpretation)
It please LORD to bruise ( crucify) Jesus, He ( LORD) has put him( Jesus) to grief. When you offer His Soul ( Jesus' Soul) for Sin Offering by believing what He did at the Cross. Then Jesus will see His Seed ( you become a new believer), God shall prolong his days ( Days of the Seed, because the seed like you will have the eternal life because of the faith), and the pleasure of the LORD will prosper in the hand of the seed.

3) verse 11
His righteous servant is Jesus, The speaker " my" is Jehovah, God the Father. Otherwise, you will find the contradiction in v 10.

4) verse 12
I is God the Father and He is God the Son, Jesus.

Otherwise, any other formula will find the contradiction.

 

I have checked your sites. One of them refered to the brethen from Gospel Hall which is a part of PB's as well. The belief may be called the Tri-One God faith which is rather between Modalism and Trinity. As the Trinity often depicts the Godheads as a Monster with 3 heads and one body, there are many Bible verses which cannot be understood by Trinity concept. When we look at the Sun, we cannot see it properly. The 3 Godheads may be sharing everything in common but with a little different characters on the surface. However, as I pointed out the cases of Isaiah 53:10-12, I and He are different personal entities. Their job titles are different.
I used to attend both Messianic Jewish Congregations on Saturdays and PB's on Sundays, and those Messianic Jews have made a great study on the linkage between Messiah prophesied in OT and Christ in NT. Also, I heard about such Tri-One God belief from a group called Witness Lee's based in Anaheim, Ca.
So, most of the Bible verses quoted in your quoted sites are familiar to me and I used to have the notion that the Godheads must be more distinguished than the Modalism but more closer than the Trinity.

A little more emphatical evidence to support your claim may be Psalm 16:10 Holy One which is also mentioned in your sites.
If we read Isaiah 48:17 we find the LORD ( Jehovah) is the Redeemer and the Holy One, and this Ha-Kodesh is so much famous among the Israelites as indicating LORD, HaShem. But how come He shall not see the corruption? It is of course because He was to be killed and to be resurrected.
As you indicated Isa 40:3 and Mt 3:3, both identifies Jehovah as Jesus.

But we must remember another aspect of this, because the name of God can be shared between 3 Godheads as we read Mt 28:19 which uses 1 singular name for 3 persons of God.
All the nature of Jehovah God the Father can be shared by Jesus God the Son, and Jesus could act anytime identically with God the Father.

You mentioned many cases of Pre-Enlfeshment Jesus ( I don't like to use Pre-Incarnate or Incarnation but prefer Enfleshment) in OT.
If you know the Hebrew word, Malack and El ( Angel) Elohim ( Angels), as I mentioned, you can find Malack more than 210 times, among them 50 times are the Theopanic Angels. Those verses you referred to are the appearance of this Malack.
Genesis 18, 22, 31, 32, 48, Exodus 3, 23, Joshua, Gideon, Manoah, Malachi, etc are all Malack's appearance.
YOu interpret Jehovah in Gn 18 is the Pre-enfleshment Jesus, but I interpret those 2 angels ( Malack's) accompanying Jehovah were Jesus and the Holy Spirit as they have the authority to JUdge in the next chapter about Sodom and Gomorrah.
Between Isa 40:3 and Mt 3:3 it is simple to understand that the identity is because both Jehovah and Jesus are sharing everything in common.

Now, if you look at Ex 23:20-23, we can find the relationship clearer.

Exodus
20 Behold, I send an Angel ( Malack) before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. 23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.


Who is this Angel ?
1) Moses had to obey him ; Human beings are not supposed to obey the angels because the angels are created to serve human beings.

2) the Angel has the authority to forgive sins. Does any angel have such authority? No one except God.

3) The extremely, extremely horrible statement is this :

My Name is in Him

Who can carry the name of the Almighty God in himself?

Someone suggested Joshuah others Michael the Archangel.
But Moses was not to obey his servant Joshuah, nor the archangel Michael who has no authority to pardon sins. None of them can carry the name of Jehovah, the Almighty God.

Here we find who carries that name.

Jn 5
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

JN 17
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus shares the same name with His Father, which means that Jesus is not the same as the Father.
Everything is shared in common between Father and Son, but it doesn't mean that Father is Son.

Between Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah Himself all things are shared in common, but we must admit that there is the difference between the Sender and the Sent.

4) One more horrible aspect of Exodus 23 :21 is that the name which Malack uses is " Jehovah" ( eventually - Yeshuah- Yehowah saves). We must remember that the name itself contains the Deity and Character of God, because Jehovah means the Self Existence in I am that I am.
This means that the Authorization by Jehovah is far different from what we can see the agency of any kings or president like Queen Elizabeth or G Bush. No one can use such name unless he or she has the Eternal nature of Deity.
Only that Malack has such authority to use such name.

However, as I mentioned, do we have to identify both Malack of Jehovah and Jehovah as the same persons? I don't think Jesus did so.

Simply I reject the identity between Jesus and Jehovah because Jesus didn't do so and Bible doesn't do so, even though they shared so many things in common in Bible, even though they share everything in common.
Shema Israel ( De 6:4-) emphasize the only God, but God Himself already embrace the Plurality and we should avoid any concept of three head monster with one body for God, but we should avoid the same identity between the God heads.

The reason why I said we don't know many of the events where Jesus worked in OT times was because there are much more events where Jesus worked not only in the form of Malack, but also as Right Hand, Yeshuah ( Salvation), Anointed, Pillar of Clouds, etc. These need more studies.

Did Jehovah have a Father? I don't think so. Jesus has a Father and He is Jehovah. Did Jehovah ever say that He was sent by His Father? Never, but Jesus did many times. Jesus is God, the Almighty God.

One more thing with Ex 23 is that LORD treats what the malack does as the same as what He does, in v 23 ( mine Angel... I will cut them off).

Likewise, in Isaiah 53, Servant of Jehovah cannot be the same as Jehovah Himself, though that Servant is God the Son, the God Almighty sharing everything in common with God the Father Almighty.

We should stay with the Bible expression instead of drawing another title by human syllogism.

 

1. The inspired writers says of Moses that it was by faith (11:26ff).

2. "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." (John 8:56). Where's the theophany here?

3. And your point is?

I can tell you this:

4. Who then was this Melchizedek since you're referring to his so much? Was he the preincarnate Christ?

5. The Bible says Melchizedek. Stick with the Bible.

6. Would not change the fact that they are all circumstantial at best.

 

Yes, the faith taught Moses about Pre-enfleshment Jesus Christ. But he met Him in person.

Apparently you don't know much about how God the Son worked in the OT times. You better read thru my previous post and the sites which BGTF quoted. Otherwise, it takes too much time for me to explain. I explained about Ex 23:20-23. Have you read it thru? Have you checked Genesis 18?
When do you think Abraham saw the days of Jesus Christ mentioned in Jn 8:56-59?

Yes, none other than He.

Where is Melchizedek now, the person who has no end of life?

 

Well, since you so passionate about your conclusions about the preincarnate Christ in the OT days, though your data is circumstantial and not conclusive, then there's nothing else for us to argue at this point.

 

It is up to you and I am not forcing you either.

 

1. How can you deny that God the Father was crucified since anyone who has seen Jesus has seen God the Father?

There is a difference between the expression of representation and the Godhead Relationship.

Now we see several cases:

2. Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him(John) that crieth in the Wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD( Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mt 3:3 For this is he( John) that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying The voice of one (John)crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord(LORD=Jesus), make his paths straight.

Why does Mt equates Jehovah and Jesus? It is because Jesus has everything in common with Jehovah, emboied Jehovah, and represent Him in the same name, though they are in relationship of Father and Son.
Because the people who have seen Jesus have seen Jehovah.

3. Malachi 3:1 and Mr 1:2-3

Mark 1:3 is apparently from Isa 40:3 which is explained above.

As for Mk 1:2,
A problem is that there is a difference between Malachi 3:1 and Mk 1:2

Mal 3:1 " Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord ( Ha-Adon : Singular) whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the messenger of the covenant whom ye delight in, Behold, He shall come," saith the LORD of Hosts.

Mk 1:2
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

I don't accept the claim that NT quoted Septuagint ( LXX) because I found many differences between NT quotes and LXX, moreover in this verse LXX is the same as the MT.
So, my interpretation about Mk 1:2 is that it might have not translated Mal 3:1 on the Word-to-Word principle but the meaning of it was translated.

If we look at mal 3:1, it is very much clear and understandable.

Behold I will send my messenger ( Malack-John the Baptist), and he shall prepare the way before me ( Jesus; because Jesus has the full Authority from Jehovah), the Lord ( Ha-Adon, Singular, Jesus) whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple, ( He is ) even the Malack( Theopanic) of Covenant whom you delight in, Behold He shall come, Says the Jehovah of Hosts.

Though Jehovah treated Jesus as Himself in the second sentence, but from the third sentence, He calls " the Lord", "Malack of Covenant," "He"

So, Jehovah differentiated between Himself and Jesus.
One thing to be careful is that the Malack for John should be understood to be different from Malack of Covenant for Jesus.

4. Exodus 23:20-23

I already explained the difference between the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah Himself, though the Malack has the full authority to speak in the name of Jehovah, to represent Him as if Jehovah Himself.
No one can carry the name of Almighty God, Jehovah, except Jesus Christ, because the word Jehovah itself is the deity and divine nature. Therefore, Benny Hinn was absolutely wrong and blasphemous when he said he is a Little Jehovah.

5. Judges 13:16
Clearly mentions Malack of the LORD. We must distinguish between Angel of the LORD and LORD Himself. Otherwise we claim One Godhead God.
The Angel instructed to offer the Sacrifice to the LORD instead of any meal for Him and His name was told " Peleh" ( Wonderful) which is found in Isaiah 9:6

6. Isaiah 53:10-12

I already mentioned that we cannot equate Jehovah and " my righteous Servant", He and I, Arm of Jehovah and Jehovah Himself, even though both persons share everything in common.

Your argument has come because the typical Trinity believers often have the concept of the God like a monster with 3 heads and one body, though they also admit the Common sharing of all the natures and the name in common.
However, I believe Jehovah was the Sender and Jesus was the Sent ( Shiloach=Shiloam in Jn 9:7-10), Jehovah was the Father and His Son is Jesus. Though we believe that the people who have seen Jesus have seen God the Father but God the Father was not crucified at the Cross. We don't say the fact that God the Son was crucified means God the Father was crucified as the Father was in the Son.
The full authorization by the Father was limited to the fullfilment of the Will of Father.



If you do not believe that I am (He), you shall die in your sins.

1) It can be interpretted as If you do not believe that I am the Messiah who was prophesied, then you shall die in your sins.

2) Deut 32:39 - I am He, which is the typical expression for God. In this case, Jesus identifies Himself with God, Jehovah because He has the full authority and full representation, being the Messiah.

So, throughout your study, I am sure the relationship between God the Father and God the Son is found to be much closer than the understanding by the typical ( or conventional, or whatever) understanding by Trinity.
But I would still remain in the truth that Jehovah is the Father and Jesus is the Son.

 

Though the 3 Godheads are distinguished, they can still have the same name as we read Mt 28:19. Do you see that they have one singular name for 3 Godheads, Father, Son, Holy Spirit ? So the fact that both share the same name doesn't mean that they are the same.

Where is it?
How could you equate the Righteous Servant and Jehovah Himself in Isaiah 53?

How could you equate the Angel in Exodus 23:20-23 and Jehovah in the same sentence?

Jesus wouldn't say so if He is asked.

Where was the Father working during OT times? Was He sleeping if Jehovah was God the Son?

 

You'd better take this issue to the other thread for Trinity. I guess you can hardly find the buyer though you are here so much condemning me as ignorant of Godhead and deity of Christ.

 

True.

YHWH is the name for God and applies to all three persons of the ONE Godhead for as scripture states "the LORD your God is ONE" and His name is YHWH.


Jesus is the human name for God the Son, incarnate and so in human form. But God the son existed from eternity past and was named "Jesus" in that eternity.

in Christ,

Bob

 

One argument on this thread is whether Jehovah=Jesus which is claimed by BGTF.

 

It is not the word game, I would ask the others opinion.

 

We'd better have more open discussion on this issue.

I don't think I am the only one who refuse call Jesus is Jehovah and Jehovah is God the Son.

You didn't answer me where was God the Father in OT.

 

You may be one of a few Christians who claim that Jesus is Jehovah and that if anyone do not believe it, he or she should go to the Hell.

You must distinguish this.

Jehovah was not the name for anyone to utter.
Nobody knows the exact pronunciation of Jehovah as the vowels are not recorded.
None of the NT writers uttered the name of Jehovah.
You can never find the word Jehovah in NT.
Jesus is the name that the believers can call upon.

In OT times, God the Father worked mainly as the representative of the deity.
Jesus God the Son worked on this earth as a prophet, and at the end He sacrificed Himself as the Offering, and He did it as a Priest, now He is coming as the King of Kings.

After the Resurrection of Jesus and His ascension, the Holy Spirit takes the charge. This is the age for the Holy Spirit, though all 3 Godheads work together.

So, Jehovah was God the Father and sent His Servant, His Son, Jesus Christ. Otherwise you encounter a lot of contradiction as I indicated in Isaiah 53 and Exodus 23.

Exodus 24:10-11 is anothe example. No one could see God ( Elohim, Plural) but the 70 Israelites saw Elohim and eat the food under the feet of Elohim ( Ex 24:9-11). In your logic, they could have seen only Jehovah.