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Featured Christ's Death

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Mar 3, 2023.

  1. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    We'll just disagree I guess. I accept the renderings of the word that appears in some versions as "propitiation" and have read the pros and cons and the philology on it. I think the case is sufficient and we look at the same verses and you don't. I respect that. Is there anyone else who publishes anything that would have a view of the atonement that you agree with?
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I accept tge rendering of the word as "propitiation" as well. But I agree with FF Bruce that "atonement" (which includes propitiation) is a better definition . . . and not just because the word is normally translated "atonement".

    Most of Christianity hold the view I agree with. If you want to narrow it down, I suppose traditional Anabaptist theology (not the newer theology of those like Weaver) would describe my view well.

    You could also read the writings of early Christians to help understand my position (Ignatius, Clement, Martyr, ect.). I don't hold them as an authority, but they express my view fairly well (although probably not as well as Anabaptist Theology).

    I just believe the "Latin view" got it wrong early...way before the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement was articulated in its present form.
     
  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    The issue is that the Bible says plainly that (as I have quoted and could quote more), and it's the notion that those statements refer to IDEAL-NON-LITERAL realities which is PLATONIC (I read half the man's works), a notion injected into Christianity thanks to Origen. Plato would have never argued that you could tangibly manipulate sin and seal it in a bag and cast it in the sea.

    Either way, Grecian heathenism is often nothing more than a perversion of the truths of Hebrew scriptures. So to find a parallel in heathenism does not automatically disannul the scripturality of a notion.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree your view is platonic.
     
  5. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Ok Jon.
     
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  6. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Direction: The Atonement in Anabaptist Theology

    Does something like that look like a reasonable place to start? I read it very quickly but need to go back and read it more carefully later. There was nothing there that gives me any concern. I was raised in a United Missionary Church, which has Mennonite roots.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Perhaps.

    Peter Riedemann would be an interesting read.

    One big difference is Anabaptist doctrine often centers on the love of God where many Penal Substitution theorists focus on the wrath of God (granted, neither should be ignored. But consider which focus Scripture gives to our redemption).

    Another difference is the "armed man" (the one to whom we were captive). Until Penal Substitution Theory, this was taken (even in the Latin views) to be the powers of darkness or Satan. But shifting the focus to judgment and a righteousness of God manifested through the Law, Penal Substitution theorists view this "armed man" as God the Father.
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    John 19:28. 'After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished....... '
    John 19:30. 'So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished."'

    The Greek word is the same for 'accomplished' and 'finished.' It (teleo) can also mean 'performed' and 'paid.' So I would like to know what was accomplished and what was finished. what was 'performed'? What was paid? Is it reasonable to argue that nothing was accomplished/finished/performed/paid until the Lord Jesus died?
     
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  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Jesus' Passive and Active Obedience was Finished, Performed, and Accomplished, in His part of the Eternal Covenant Agreement, Among the GODHEAD.

    Sin debt was paid for The Godhead's elect. It is reasonable to argue that His payment had not yet beed technically ratified, as a hair that is unreasonable to split.

    Of course, not only had He not Chronologically died, and Confirmed this Testament, whether or not, "it is Finished", was spoken literally with His last breath, it is Logically impossible that Jesus could have even contemplated jumping off the cross prior to His death and nullifying His ultimately assured complete Finished Work to be Accomplished, WITH ALLPOWERFULLY EXECUTED SUCCESS, as the Surety and Testator of the Eternal Covenant of Grace.

    Since, as God, Jesus had just said, "it is Finished" and God can not lie.

    "Christ as a Surety, engaged to pay the debts of his people, and satisfy for the wrong and injury done by them."

    "...this may be illustrated by the instance of the apostle Paul engaging for Onesimus;

    "which is thus expressed, "If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on my account; I Paul, have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it", (Philem. 1:18, 19).

    "Sin is a wrong and injury done to divine justice, and to the holy law of God, broken by it;

    "which Christ undertook to satisfy for; and sins are debts; see (Matthew 6:12) compared with (Luke 11:4) not proper ones, for then they might be committed with impunity, since it is right and commendable to pay debts: but in an improper sense, as debts oblige to payment, so sins to punishment;

    "even to endure the curse of the law, and death eternal, the sanction of it: these debts, or sins, are infinite objectively, as they are contracted and committed against an infinite being, and require punishment of a creature ad infinitum;

    "and therefore not to be paid off, or answered, by a finite creature;

    "but Christ being an infinite Person, as God, was able to pay off those debts, and answer for those sins, and engaged to do it, and has done it.

    "There is a twofold debt paid by Christ, as the Surety of his people; the one is a debt of obedience to the law of God;

    "this he engaged to do, when he said, "Lo, I come to do thy will"; thy law is within my heart: and accordingly he was made under the law, and yielded perfect obedience to it, by which his people are made righteous;

    "and the other is a debt of punishment, incurred through failure of obedience in them;

    "the curse of the law he has endured, the penalty of it, death; and by paying both these debts, the whole righteousness of the law is fulfilled in his people, considered in him their Head and Surety."


    Then, what happened?

    He had also not been Separated in the Spirit, from His body God the Father had Elected and Prepared for Him, and then, Returned to Heaven, as God Who is Spirit, had not yet died, or been buried, and had not Resurrected from the dead, or Ascended back to Heaven, to "Fullfil" His Position as the Federal Head of His Elect and Mediator.

    Resurrected from the dead.

    "In consequence of Christ's covenant engagements and performances, when he rose from the dead, he rose not as a private Person, but as a public Person, as the head and representative of all those for whom he obeyed and suffered;

    "and therefore they are said to be quickened and raised together with him, as they were then also justified in him, when he himself, as their Head and Surety was, #Eph 2:5,6 Col 3:1 1Ti 3:16.

    Ascended back to Heaven, as Mediator.

    "Yea, Christ is also gone to heaven, not only as the Forerunner of his people, but as their Head and Representative;

    "he has taken possession of heaven in their name, appears in the presence of God for them, and represents them, as the high priest did the children of Israel, in the holy of holies; and hence they are said to be made to sit together in heavenly places "in Christ Jesus", #Eph 2:6."

    "CHRIST, THE TESTATOR OF THE COVENANT.

    1. First, The covenant of grace bears the name, and has the nature of a testament: it is often called the new and better testament, as administered under the gospel dispensation, (Matthew 26:28; Heb. 7:22, 9:15) in distinction from the former: it is called a testament, in allusion to the last will and testament of men.

    "And,
    1a. Because it is the will of God himself, and not another;

    'the will of him that is sovereign and absolute, who does according to his will in heaven and in earth, in nature, providence, and grace.

    "The covenant is founded on the will of God, and is the pure effect of it; he was not obliged to make it;

    "he freely and of his own accord came into it;

    "so all the contracting parties in it, (the Godhead) as has been before observed.

    A man's will or testament ought to be voluntary; he is not to be forced nor drawn, nor pressed to make it, contrary to his inclination; or otherwise it is not his own will.

    "This will, or testament, of Jehovah, is an ancient one, it was made in eternity;

    "it is called an everlasting covenant, or testament; not only because it always continues, and will never become null and void, but because it is from everlasting;

    "the bequests and donations made in it were made before the world began
    (2 Tim. 1:9).

    "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"


    It is a will or testament that is unalterable; "Though it be but a man’s covenant", or testament, "yet if it be confirmed" by his own handwriting and seal, and especially by his death, "no man disannulleth or addeth thereunto" (Gal. 3:15).

    "The covenant of grace is ordered in all things, and sure; this testament, or will, is founded upon the immutability of the divine counsel;

    "so that the heirs of promise, the legatees in it, may have strong consolation, and be fully assured of enjoying their legacies in it;

    "which are the sure mercies of David, of David's Son and Antitype, as all the promises of it are Yea and Amen in him.

    "To all wills there are commonly witnesses, and often three, and in some cases three are required.

    "Now as God sware by himself, because he could sware by no greater;

    "so because no other and proper witnesses could be had, to witness this will made in eternity, God himself, or the three divine Persons, became witnesses to it, the Three that bare record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost (1 John 5:7).

    ( In case you ever wonder why Satan has put so much effect into trying to remove this verse from our Canon!)
     
    #89 Alan Gross, Mar 7, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2023
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Well if you want to be precise about it then all things were accomplished prior to His death, He had to be alive to say those words, but that is not the intent of the passage is it?

    Christ Jesus had paid the sin debt of ungodly sinful mankind so that we could be reconciled to the Father and the pathway to salvation could now be provided.
     
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    :Rolleyes The usual anti-Calvinist nonsense.

    What was it, O our God,
    Led Thee to give Thy Son,
    To give Thy Well-beloved
    For us by sin undone?
    'Twas love unbounded led Thee thus
    To give Thy Well-beloved for us.

    What led the Son of God
    To leave His throne on high,
    To shed His precious blood,
    To suffer and to die?
    'Twas love, unbounded love to us,
    Led Him to die and suffer thus.

    What moved Thee to impart
    Thy Spirit from above,
    That He might fill our heart
    With heavenly peace and love?
    'Twas love, unbounded love to us,
    Moved Thee to give Thy Spirit thus.

    What love to Thee we owe,
    Our God, for all Thy grace!
    Our hearts may well o'erflow
    In everlasting praise:
    Help us, O Lord, to praise Thee thus
    For all Thy boundless love to us.

    Ann Gilbert (1782-1866)
     
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  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    It's good to be precise, don't you think?
    Is it not?
    Quite clearly the meaning is that everything that needed to be done to satisfy the outraged justice of God had been done, save for His death which followed almost immediately.. He had achieved the goal of His incarnation (1Timothy 1:15); He had defeated Satan (1 John 3:8; new thread neded for that) watch this space); He had borne the wrath of God against sin (Romans 3:26); He had fulfilled the types and shadows of the O.T., He had fulfilled and magnified the law and made it honourable (Isaiah 42:21; Romans 3:31). Now all that was necessary was for Him to become the perfect High Priest by offering the one perfect sacrifice of Himself for sin (Hebrews 10:11-13).

    Did He then need to rise again? Of course He did. The Resurrection showed that God was satisfied by His propitiation and vindicated Him as the sinless Son of God (.Romans 1:4).
     
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  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Galatians 2: 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Brother Glen:)
     
  14. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    A couple of things were problematic on this thread. It started out with a premise that Reformed theology was guilty of making the death of Christ not essential because everything was accomplished before he actually died. I was hoping that had been put aside.

    The other thing is the idea that Reformed theology has an overemphasis on the wrath of God as opposed to his love. There is a modern argument that God the Father was wrathful in a human sense (out of control, passionate anger) and Jesus had to step forth with a way to placate this wrath. Actually here Reformed theology is very helpful in that it teaches God Himself planned our redemption out of a sense of justice and love which He has accomplished with Jesus suffering and death and done so in a way that reveals His love and justice to us even though we had no right to any consideration in this at all.

    But the other thing re wrath is that I think wrath IS indeed a huge aspect of our relationship with God as humans. Whether you count the word "wrath" in the Old Testament or just read you notice constantly our collective deliberate provoking God and His constant warning that He will not always be merciful. And this includes the Son Himself in the New Testament. Read some J.I. Packer on the wrath of God. It cannot be overemphasized that our problem, our main problem, as humans is that we have collectively and individually incited the wrath of God and continue to do so.

    Take a quick look at this link if you want to see how goofy some of the modernist views of the Atonement get. This is not what anyone on here has suggested but it is why I get so upset when I suspect someone is messing with the Atonement.
    Atonement
     
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  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    So it seems we are on the same page on more things than not.;)
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Wonderful (and IMHO theologically rich) song.

    But you make a couple of mistakes.

    First, I am not anti-Calvinist. I think tge Calvinist movements to distance themselves from the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement are great, although I believe it will affect more doctrine than they think. But it is good to see them, in their words, seek "to move towards a more biblical Atonement".

    That said, I have no issue with regular Calvinists either. As you well know, I believed Calvinism and taught Calvinistic theology for a long time. Just because somebody is a Calvinist doesn't mean they are not Christian.

    Second, a song or even sermons on love, does not change the fact that Calvinism and Arminianism are focused on divine justice and wrath in regard to redemption. I never said the love of God is absent.
     
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    One moment, please...

    "God "foreordained" him, as he was foreordained to be the Lamb slain, as the ransom price and propitiatory sacrifice;

    "whose sufferings and death, which were the sacrifice, were according to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:19; Acts 2:23; 4:28), and he was set forth in the promises and prophecies spoken of by all the holy prophets that were from the beginning of the world; as the seed of the woman that should bruise the serpents head, destroy him and his works, among which this is a principal one, making an end of sin, by a complete atonement for it;

    "and he was set forth as such in the types and shadows of the law, the trespass offerings, and sin offerings, which are said to bear the sins of the congregation, and to make atonement for them;

    "which were typical of Christ, who was made an offering for sin, bore the sins of many, and made atonement for them (Lev. 10:17), and he has been set forth, in the fulness of time, in the exhibition of him, in human nature, in which he was manifested to take away sin;

    "and he has put it away, and even abolished it, by the propitiatory sacrifice of himself;

    "and he is still set forth in the gospel, as the sin bearing and sin atoning Saviour who has satisfied law and justice, and made peace by the blood of his cross; and therefore it is called the word of reconciliation, the gospel of peace, and the word preaching peace by Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all."


    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




    One moment, please...

    I wasn't going to c&p a ton, but this is sweet. If you can't preach this, don't bring your guns to town!



    "There are some on whom no wrath comes here, nor hereafter; who are the vessels of mercy, afore prepared for glory: concerning whom Jehovah says, "fury is not in me";

    "and to whom he is all love, "love" itself, (Isa. 27:4; 1 John 4:16) being sinners indeed, and transgressors of the law of God, they are children of wrath as others, (Eph. 2:3) which phrase not only means that they are serving of wrath, but that, as they are sinners, they are found guilty of it;

    "and not only found guilty, but are condemned unto it; they are really under the sentence of wrath, condemnation, and death; they are obnoxious to the curse of the law, which is no other than the wrath of God; they are liable to it, and in danger of it;

    "and being so near it, how is it that they escape it, and are secured from it?

    They are secured from it by the decree of God, who has appointed them not to wrath, but to obtain salvation, (1 Thess. 5:9) which decree is unfrustrable by the oath of God, who has swore that he will not be wrath with them, (Isa. 54:9) which is immutable: by the suretyship engagements of Christ for them, to bear it in their room; and till that was done, God forbore to execute the sentence;

    "called the forbearance of God, (Rom. 3:25) by Christ's actually bearing the chastisement of their peace; by being made a curse for them, and enduring the wrath of God in their room;

    "whereby he delivered them from wrath to come, (Ps. 89:38; 1 Thess. 5:10) and by his righteousness imputed to them, through which, being justified, they are saved from wrath, (Rom. 5:9) though even these persons may have, at times, some apprehensions of the wrath of God;

    "as, particularly, under first awakenings, and convictions of sin; when the law works a sense of wrath in them, and leaves in them a fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation; when they flee to Christ, from wrath to come, and say, "Lord, save us, or we perish";

    "and afterwards, when under the hiding of God's face, or his afflicting hand is upon them, they imagine that the wrath of God lies hard upon them, and his fierce wrath goes over them, (Ps. 88:7, 16; Lam. 3:1) but in reality, there is no wrath comes upon them now;

    "their afflictions and chastisements are all in love; and there will be no curse hereafter; but they shall always see the face of God, and be "in his presence, where are fulness of joy, and pleasures for evermore" (Rev. 3:19, 22:3, 4)."
     
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Christ was made a sin offering, because God by imputation laid upon Him the sins of all His Elect/Sheep. Isa 53:6,10

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Biblically Christ's phyisical death occured (verse 30) after the atonement (before verse 28). John's account makes that case.

    John 19:28-30, ". . . After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. . . ."
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, that is not the case at all. It is how you interpret the passage (which is fine) but it "being the case" necessitates less subjectivity.

    The Atonement means the Reconciliation (literally...that is what the biblical word means).

    Paul tells we are reconciled through Christ's death. This (like Christ saying "it is accomplished" after saying "I thirst") incorporates the entire act of reconciling mankind to God .

    Otherwise you have John contradicting Paul and Luke.

    Do you not find it odd that so many interpret the Cross as a deathless Atonement based on Christ saying "it is finished" before He died?
     
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