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Christ's return

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by webdog, Mar 8, 2006.

  1. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    Am I reading you correctly? Are you suggesting that Jesus, in eternity past, was 100% man? Even before God said "Let there be...?"
     
  2. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    Your "voice from Heaven" theory is pure speculation. Out of the light (not Heaven) came "I am Jesus Christ of Nazereth". </font>[/QUOTE]the Light was from heaven per Acts 9 and 22.
     
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Am I reading you correctly? Are you suggesting that Jesus, in eternity past, was 100% man? Even before God said "Let there be...?" </font>[/QUOTE]It's not what "I" say, it's what the Bible says. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Being "hu"-man, and being man are two separate things. He took the form of hu-man 2000 years ago, but He has always been 100% God and 100% Man.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Your "voice from Heaven" theory is pure speculation. Out of the light (not Heaven) came "I am Jesus Christ of Nazereth". </font>[/QUOTE]You are speculating also webdog. Scripture does not say where the voice came from:

    Acts 9:3-9, KJV
    3. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
    4. And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
    5. And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
    6. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
    7. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
    8. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
    9. And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
     
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Am I reading you correctly? Are you suggesting that Jesus, in eternity past, was 100% man? Even before God said "Let there be...?" </font>[/QUOTE]It's not what "I" say, it's what the Bible says. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Being "hu"-man, and being man are two separate things. He took the form of hu-man 2000 years ago, but He has always been 100% God and 100% Man. </font>[/QUOTE]Could you quote the passage of Scripture that states that Jesus Christ took the form of a hu-man 2000 years ago?
     
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Am I reading you correctly? Are you suggesting that Jesus, in eternity past, was 100% man? Even before God said "Let there be...?" </font>[/QUOTE]It's not what "I" say, it's what the Bible says. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Being "hu"-man, and being man are two separate things. He took the form of hu-man 2000 years ago, but He has always been 100% God and 100% Man. </font>[/QUOTE]Could you quote the passage of Scripture that states that Jesus Christ took the form of a hu-man 2000 years ago? </font>[/QUOTE]Mat 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of King Herod, wise men from the east arrived unexpectedly in Jerusalem,

    Luk 2:7 Then she gave birth to her firstborn Son, and she wrapped Him snugly in cloth and laid Him in a feeding trough--because there was no room for them at the inn.

    I can't believe there are those who believe Jesus only became man when Mary gave birth to Him!
    According to this theology, Jesus was only Spirit, until He became Man? NOW He exists as God and Man?!? Jesus has ALWAYS existed in the glorified body He ascended into Heaven with prior to being born human, where only then He had the ability to be tempted, suffer, age and die. Jesus has always been God and Man!
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Am I reading you correctly? Are you suggesting that Jesus, in eternity past, was 100% man? Even before God said "Let there be...?" </font>[/QUOTE]It's not what "I" say, it's what the Bible says. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Being "hu"-man, and being man are two separate things. He took the form of hu-man 2000 years ago, but He has always been 100% God and 100% Man. </font>[/QUOTE]Could you quote the passage of Scripture that states that Jesus Christ took the form of a hu-man 2000 years ago? </font>[/QUOTE]Mat 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of King Herod, wise men from the east arrived unexpectedly in Jerusalem,

    Luk 2:7 Then she gave birth to her firstborn Son, and she wrapped Him snugly in cloth and laid Him in a feeding trough--because there was no room for them at the inn.

    I can't believe there are those who believe Jesus only became man when Mary gave birth to Him!
    According to this theology, Jesus was only Spirit, until He became Man? NOW He exists as God and Man?!? Jesus has ALWAYS existed in the glorified body He ascended into Heaven with prior to being born human, where only then He had the ability to be tempted, suffer, age and die. Jesus has always been God and Man!
    </font>[/QUOTE]webdog

    You did not quote Scripture showing that Jesus Christ took the form of a hu-man! You quoted Scripture showing He was born as a male child [who in time would grow into a man]. Perhaps you could enlighten everyone on the difference between a man and an adult male hu-man.

    The doctrine of the Triune God states that there are three persons but only one nature. Since this is true you are, in effect, claiming that the God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are both God and Man. I believe that you are off the reservation on this.
     
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Quit trying to figure out finite things with an infinite mind. To claim that Jesus has not always been God and Man is the same view Nestorius held: That Jesus is separated into two natures, Spirit prior to being born as a human, Spirit and human from that point forward. God the Son is still one nature being both God and Man. If you don't believe this, you hold to Christ having two natures. Sounds like you either believe what Nestorius believed, or the chalcedonian view, not the monophysite view.
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the compliment but my mind is not infinite! :D :D :D
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You don't understand the views of Nestorius any more than you understand the nature of Jesus Christ.

    Nestorius objected to Mary being called God-bearer, rather preferring that she be called Christ bearer. Nestorius was apparently farsighted enough to recognize that the use of the term theotokos or God-bearer would be corrupted into the heresy that Mary is the Mother of God.

    Now provide some Scripture to show that the Triune God is eternally man which you are claiming.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Thanks for the compliment but my mind is not infinite! :D :D :D </font>[/QUOTE][​IMG] I just now caught that.
     
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You don't understand the views of Nestorius any more than you understand the nature of Jesus Christ.

    Nestorius objected to Mary being called God-bearer, rather preferring that she be called Christ bearer. Nestorius was apparently farsighted enough to recognize that the use of the term theotokos or God-bearer would be corrupted into the heresy that Mary is the Mother of God.

    Now provide some Scripture to show that the Triune God is eternally man which you are claiming.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Nestorian believed in two natures of Jesus Christ, not real difficult to understand.
    A=B, B=C, therefore A=C doesn't work when trying to figure out God. You view fails, too, then, if you believe NOW Christ is God/Man.
    Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday(past), today(present), and forever.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You don't understand the views of Nestorius any more than you understand the nature of Jesus Christ.

    Nestorius objected to Mary being called God-bearer, rather preferring that she be called Christ bearer. Nestorius was apparently farsighted enough to recognize that the use of the term theotokos or God-bearer would be corrupted into the heresy that Mary is the Mother of God.

    Now provide some Scripture to show that the Triune God is eternally man which you are claiming.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Nestorian believed in two natures of Jesus Christ, not real difficult to understand.
    A=B, B=C, therefore A=C doesn't work when trying to figure out God. You view fails, too, then, if you believe NOW Christ is God/Man.
    Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday(past), today(present), and forever.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You are misinterpreting Hebrews 13:8 but even if you were not yesterday is not the eternal past. Furthermore you have not addessed my point that if God the Son is both God and man eternally then God the Father and God the Holy Spirit must also be both God and man eternally since the doctrine of the Trinity is that there are three persons but only one nature.

    You might be interested in knowing the orthodox doctrine of the person of Jesus Christ, at least from the Baptist viewpoint [1689 Baptist Confession].

    Chapter 8: Of Christ the Mediator
    1. It pleased God, in His eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, his only begotten Son, according to the covenant made between them both, to be the mediator between God and man; the prophet, priest, and king; head and saviour of the church, the heir of all things, and judge of the world; unto whom he did from all eternity give a people to be his seed and to be by him in time redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.
    ( Isaiah 42:1; 1 Peter 1:19, 20; Acts 3:22; Hebrews 5:5, 6; Psalms 2:6; Luke 1:33; Ephesians 1:22, 23; Hebrews 1:2; Acts 17:31; Isaiah 53:10; John 17:6; Romans 8:30 )

    2. The Son of God, the second person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eternal God, the brightness of the Father's glory, of one substance and equal with him who made the world, who upholdeth and governeth all things he hath made, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon him man's nature, with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin; being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit coming down upon her: and the power of the Most High overshadowing her; and so was made of a woman of the tribe of Judah, of the seed of Abraham and David according to the Scriptures; so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion; which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man.
    ( John 1:14; Galatians 4;4; Romans 8:3; Hebrews 2:14, 16, 17; Hebrews 4:15; Matthew 1:22, 23; Luke 1:27, 31, 35; Romans 9:5; 1 Timothy 2:5 )

    3. The Lord Jesus, in his human nature thus united to the divine, in the person of the Son, was sanctified and anointed with the Holy Spirit above measure, having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge; in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell, to the end that being holy, harmless, undefiled, and full of grace and truth, he might be throughly furnished to execute the office of mediator and surety; which office he took not upon himself, but was thereunto called by his Father; who also put all power and judgement in his hand, and gave him commandment to execute the same.
    ( Psalms 45:7; Acts 10:38; John 3:34; Colossians 2:3; Colossians 1:19; Hebrews 7:26; John 1:14; Hebrews 7:22; Hebrews 5:5; John 5:22, 27; Matthew 28:18; Acts 2:36 )
     
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    This says "man's nature with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin;" What is this? It's humanity. This is not saying Christ has not always been God and Man. We were made in God's image. How could we be made in an image without a model? This is not only talking about spirituality, but mankind as a whole, everything that makes us "man".
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    This says "man's nature with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin;" What is this? It's humanity. This is not saying Christ has not always been God and Man. We were made in God's image. How could we be made in an image without a model? This is not only talking about spirituality, but mankind as a whole, everything that makes us "man". </font>[/QUOTE]Your reasoning? is ridiculous. How could Jesus Christ be both God and man before the Incarnation without having the nature of man? Was He just an empty shell?

    You say
    What image did God use to make woman, Mary the Mother of God? Did God have an image for the universe, perhaps made of tinker toys or legos? How could He have created the universe without an image?

    I suppose God is 6 ft. tall and weighs 180 Pounds. Does He have blue eyes or brown eyes. Wonder if God had any trouble shrinking Jesus Christ to the size of a woman’s egg in order to get Him inside her womb. But then of course she would not have conceived and Scripture would be wrong. Your argument sounds like something that comes out of the word-faith heresy.

    You still have not addessed my point that if God the Son is both God and man eternally then God the Father and God the Holy Spirit muat also be both God and man eternally since the doctrine of the Trinity is that there are three persons but only one nature.

    But then if they were both God and man they would have two natures. Guess the doctrine of the Trinity must be in error.
    :D :D
     
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You also don't believe that The Trinity is three distinct persons that make up one triune God? Wow!
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You question what Jesus can and can't do? How did "The Angel of the Lord" (Jesus) eat with Abraham? How can we have real bodies after we die without the "nature" (sin, infermities) of man?
    Strawman :rolleyes:
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    It is you who apparently do not believe the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity from the content of your posts.

    For you to imply that I do not believe in the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is an outright and deliberate lie.
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You question what Jesus can and can't do? How did "The Angel of the Lord" (Jesus) eat with Abraham? How can we have real bodies after we die without the "nature" (sin, infermities) of man?
    Strawman :rolleyes:
    </font>[/QUOTE]Webdog, you can shout "strawman" all you wish but just defend your false assertions if you can. If God required a model to create man He would have needed a model to create everything else that He created.

    Also, I have asked you on several occasions to address the following statement which is implied by your insistence that Jesus Christ existed eternally as God and Man. You refuse to do so for the simple reason that you cannot. All your arguments are false. I repeat that statement once again:

    If God the Son is both God and man eternally then God the Father and God the Holy Spirit must also be both God and man eternally since the doctrine of the Trinity is that there are three persons but only one nature.

    You will notice that my understanding of the Trinity gives the lie to your post above to which I have already replied.
     
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    The answer is found in God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit being three distinct Persons , yet one triune God. Can your mind comprehend that? Mine can't, but it still is true. Of course, a calvinist will try to comprehend everything to fit into man's mind.
     
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