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Church Denied into Local SBC Association

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Ruiz, Oct 18, 2011.

  1. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    The Acts 29 is a doctrinally sound, Christ glorifying organization, with SBC leaders and affiliations such as Matt Chandler, David Platt, and many others.

    Lets be careful not to smear Christ honoring brothers and sisters in Christ.
     
  2. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

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    Yes, Hershael York has also verified this information on his facebook and twitter accounts. I have not personally talked to Dr. York, but I assume he is getting his information from a variety of sources. I also assume one of my sources is one of his.

    The issue is that the church is reformed. There does not seem to be any other issue that the association felt disqualified the church from membership.
     
  3. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

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    Yes, you heard it here first... then you can read about it in the paper here. Again, my sources were valid, accurate, and appropriate.

    BTW, I have had dealings with this association in the past. There is much background I could add but have not. This actually surprised me at the overwhelming vote, but it didn't surprise me from my dealings with this group.
     
  4. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Good for the Daviess-McLean Baptist Association. I'm glad they are standing up for what they believe in! :thumbs:
     
  5. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you were right and this ass'n was wrong.

    A couple of quotes from the article just amazed me:
    It's apparent that this ass'n is everything a SBC ass'n should not be. ​
     
  6. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

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    Matt,

    Can you show me where in their statement of belief that they should stand against reformed theology? Please cite the specific BF&M 2000 statement.

    The fact is, the association does not have any statement on this issue. They voted in accordance to their beliefs, but it is not a part of their stated beliefs.
     
  7. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    I've not stated that had this written down. I'm just happy with their decision.
     
  8. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

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    That is the problem, if you are not willing to clearly make your statement is writing, you have no reason as an association to demand this as a part of fellowship between churches. Traditionally, Baptists have given the doctrinal statement as foundational to fellowship, if you disagree you should leave but if you agree you can unite. Adding criteria that are not written or won't be written, is a dangerous precedence and one that I find disturbing.

    I am not against kicking people out of the association or voting to keep people out. This association did just that a few months ago to another church. But in that case, which I applauded, was based on their doctrinal statement. This one was not thus inappropriate.
     
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    were they saying than that ONLY those holding to NoN cal/Arminian theology can be SBC in good standing, that would be a dividing issue to stand upon per the Bible?
     
  10. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    From the link supplied this morning by Ruiz:

    Huh?

    Isn't that what the OP is all about?
     
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    isn't holding to DoG what got them the "baptist right foot of fellowship?"
     
  12. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    That's the spin some are trying to push. Yet here we have the church's pastor denying that designation.

    More from the state paper:

    The vote was overwhelming (104 AGAINST, just 9 FOR)

    "there were other contributing issues that emerged"

    like haughtiness [now where have we heard that before?], for which the pastor is now apologizing
     
  13. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Although I'm disappointed with the vote, I do recognize the right of a Baptist association to determine with whom it will associate and cooperate, and the right of autonomous Baptist churches to do the same.

    It works both ways. A few years ago in a couple of associations in Western Kentucky, some churches bowed out because they wanted to accept non-Baptist baptism (what we would call Alien Immersion).

    Another church I'm familiar with withdrew from an association in Western Kentucky because the association would not permit women to be messengers. The church thought it had a deal to resolve the issue, but it fell apart at the last minute.
     
  14. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

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    Let me clarify some issues here that are being bantied about. For the record, this is my hometown, I was born in Owensboro and much of my family is still in the area or in Evansville. As a result, we still have friends and family in the area.

    First, the issue is about Calvinism. The article saying that the church does not identify with Calvinism, is meant only in the fact that they don't publicly advertise as Calvinists in official statements. In other words, they don't advertise it, but they are Calvinists. Everyone knows they are Calvinists and they are active with other reformed churches in the area. Yet, like other churches, they tend to focus on the Gospel and essential issues in their doctrinal statement.

    As for the haughtiness. I think this was in response to "inquiries" and challenges from the Association or member churches. Being an Acts 29 church, there were many questions and tough lines of questioning. I don't doubt things got stressed during this time. Yet, the issue the night of the vote was not haughtiness, it was Calvinism as noted in the article, some may have made the haughtiness a secondary issue, but the discussion was over Calvinism. The article focused on Calvinism because that was the focus on the night of the vote. I have double checked this information. In my opinion, if haughtiness is a criteria, no SBC church in America would qualify, especially if you observe their business meetings. Yes, the church did apologize but overall it was the issue of reformed theology

    Finally, I wrote one of the leaders in reformed circles a short note and said the following, " Knowing a little about the association, I was not surprised. I, also, do not think it helps that they have another great, reformed, missions minded, and scholarly focused church in their community who is very well known. To me (and this is only my speculation), I think they feel threatened.... For the most part, I think their fears are unfounded, but after a while these fears take on a life of their own."

    I said a little more and sent other private notes to others giving my account. Yet, I think it is due to fear. One very solid Reformed Baptist Church is in the area. This church regularly has well known Southern Baptists and Southern Baptist Denominational Employees who frequent their church but the association seems to publicly avoid them even when these men are in town. The church is extremely involved in missions, starting mission works that have been recognized internationally for their effectiveness or has had a tremendous impact in various communities. Thus, with a church very engaged in missions and evangelism, with resident renowned scholars, top SBCers regularly involved at the church, and a reformed mindset, I think they may feel threatened or challenged.

    Most of the issue with the association is fear, in my opinion. Fear of what? I don't know and wondered that even when I was living in Owensboro and talking with the Association and fellow churches. The church I belonged to inquired into joining the association, I opposed such a move but we did inquire. We didn't because it seemed like they were opposed to us joining because we were reformed. We decided to not even try to join in hopes that we could still support the association whenever we could but we didn't want to cause any division. That was several years ago, and I am saddened that there seems that things have gotten worse and not better.
     
  15. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Different doctrines?

    In my local church, we only fellowship with "like minded" churches. We only accept baptisms from "like minded" churches.

    Reformed and non-Reformed are definately not like minded. I would have a problem worshiping with people that would deny that Jesus died for all of us.

    Calvinists make me nervous, I am always wondering if they really believe that I am one of the elect.

    Just my opinion.

    John
     
    #55 seekingthetruth, Oct 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2011
  16. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

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    Also note the following quotations:

    The initial inquiry was because the association did not like Calvinism.

    Again, I do not doubt haughtiness, but that came after the inquiry where things no doubt took a turn as this church was challenged on their doctrinal beliefs.

    The reason they were denied is by such a margin is the people were voting in accordance to the credentials committee report, not merely an up and down vote on the church. I do doubt that they still would have been voted in.

    The Bellevue Pastor said:

    Even this Pastor saw that the pulse of the association was against a reformed church joining the association, and not merely the other issue. I can attest this is true from my experience with the association. Now, I am not saying the association is evil, in fact I think the DOM is a very nice man and many of the Pastors are nice people, but there are many strong opinions about reformed theology.

    The Pastor of Pleasant Valley did apologize for any perceived impatience or haughtiness, but even noted the issue was reformed theology from the beginning of the inquiry stage:

    Yet, their doctrinal statement, as noted earlier, clearly states they are reformed. They just don't advertise it.

    I think this is true. When our church inquired about joining, this is the reason we were told on why they were reluctant for a reformed church, like ours, to joining the association. They were afraid it would cause a rift in the association itself and create disharmony because of the differences in theology.

    So, I do not doubt anyone was lying in the article. Yet, I think mostly it was about reformed theology.
     
  17. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    John, I hope that if you get to know a few Calvinistic Christians your views of them may change. They are simply trying to make sense of the scriptures speaking of election and predestination, as you are. The average Reformed person would say that if you love Jesus it is evidence that you are one of the saved elect.

    I would hope those of us on both sides would have the attitude of John Wesley (Not a Calvinist at all!) and see the other side as Christians trying to make sense of difficult texts. Here are some of his words on the matter.


     
  18. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Are you saved?
    IF you are, you are one of the elect of God!

    IF you were not one, you would not even have a desire to come toChrist and be saved!

    And the Christians are all part of one body, one Lord, one Baptism, one Father etc

    We are one in jesus, and we all have freedom in Him to disagree over issues like Cal/Arm, Gifts cease/still Modes of baptism etc

    CANNOT have a different view though on non negotiables like Cross is outr atonement, jesus ONLY way to heaven, Second Coming, saved by grace/faith alone etc!
     
  19. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Great Post.....
    Signed a Non Cal.
     
  20. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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