freeatlast
New Member
What are your feelings on church disciplin? When should it be done and what should be the limits of its actions? Or should it not be done at all?
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Church Disciplin
- Thread starter freeatlast
- Start date
Matthew 18 says it all.
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
Shouldn't be any questions after that.
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
Shouldn't be any questions after that.
freeatlast
New Member
Don
I would agree, but very few churches follow it today.
I would agree, but very few churches follow it today.
Daniel David
New Member
Matthew 18 isn't the only text on the issue. It only deals with certain problems.
Sexual sin is to be immediately dealt with by excommunication. There is no one or two persons going to see the sexually immoral.
When it is an elder, and at least two witnesses can verify, he is to be rebuked publicly.
Sexual sin is to be immediately dealt with by excommunication. There is no one or two persons going to see the sexually immoral.
When it is an elder, and at least two witnesses can verify, he is to be rebuked publicly.
freeatlast
New Member
That is not limited to sexual sin. We are to deal with all sin in those who claim to be saved.
Taking in context the entire chapter, are we speaking to the church at Corinth about their particular oversight, or are we reading guidance for every church from that point forward?
Remember, the passage in verses 9-13 was directed towards a church that was allowing a fornicator to continue participating in the Lord's Supper with them; even more so, the fornicator in questions was committing the act with his father's wife.
So do verses 9-13 still hold as a hard-and-fast rule to stand by, or is it meant for a church that is knowingly allowing sexual sins to continue unchecked?
And what do you do with a brother in sexual sin who, once confronted, repents of his error?
(just going for discussion and understanding here)
Remember, the passage in verses 9-13 was directed towards a church that was allowing a fornicator to continue participating in the Lord's Supper with them; even more so, the fornicator in questions was committing the act with his father's wife.
So do verses 9-13 still hold as a hard-and-fast rule to stand by, or is it meant for a church that is knowingly allowing sexual sins to continue unchecked?
And what do you do with a brother in sexual sin who, once confronted, repents of his error?
(just going for discussion and understanding here)
freeatlast
New Member
Don,
I am not sure if you read the text, but it actually names other sins. It is not exclusive as you are suggesting. Also the passage is for all times, not just an occassion at Corinth. If it were we do not need another history book, tear it out of the bible and go on.
I am not sure if you read the text, but it actually names other sins. It is not exclusive as you are suggesting. Also the passage is for all times, not just an occassion at Corinth. If it were we do not need another history book, tear it out of the bible and go on.
Galatians 6:1 "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."
Often forgotten in striving for purity is the GOAL of restoration, not excommunication.
Often forgotten in striving for purity is the GOAL of restoration, not excommunication.
freeatlast
New Member
Dr Bob,
I totally agree. The problem is that it takes the process of disciplin to even bring this about. If the person listens no other steps need be taken, but few churches today even start the process.
Why NOT discipline when open sin is there?
Power? (don't want to offend key families)
Money? (see above)
Numbers (don't want to drive folks away)
Peace? (don't upset the applecart, peace at any price)
Doctrine? (weak understanding of discipline)
Love? (don't want to hurt anyone)
Of course, following any of those reasons above the biblical mandate to discipline is sin.
Power? (don't want to offend key families)
Money? (see above)
Numbers (don't want to drive folks away)
Peace? (don't upset the applecart, peace at any price)
Doctrine? (weak understanding of discipline)
Love? (don't want to hurt anyone)
Of course, following any of those reasons above the biblical mandate to discipline is sin.
freeatlast
New Member
Exactly! Lovers of men rather then lovers of God. We need to fear not those who distroy the body, but Him who can distroy both body and soul.
Romans 14 and 15, brother. Galatians 6:1.
Not a "sin police squad", but an accountability for ALL Christians. I would most certainly hope that if you see me doing something that offends you, or that you consider sin, that you would confront me on it--right then and there if need be--in order to restore me, or at least have me explain what's going on.
Not a "sin police squad", but an accountability for ALL Christians. I would most certainly hope that if you see me doing something that offends you, or that you consider sin, that you would confront me on it--right then and there if need be--in order to restore me, or at least have me explain what's going on.
hmmm well let's see, let's take the idea of excommunicating sinning believers in the church and put it up against the scripture of "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". The idea isn't to say, you sin and won't hear what "I" or "WE" have to say so you can't worship with "US" anymore!!! The concept of this is it's all about US and what WE want instead of seeing a wounded with sin individual (much like the rest of us) we need to remember, we aren't the holy spirit or anyone's conscience so that person may not be ready to hear and accept that what they are doing is wrong. Kicking them out will do several things, cause pain, anger and hate. Pray for that person, go to the person ONLY ONLY with the leading of Christ not just because they need to be told. Provide counseling and restoration for when that individual is ready to go through it. Keep in mind, you don't know their heart and why they are doing what they are doing.
freeatlast
New Member
If they are living in sin and refuse to repent we know their heart.
The idea of that saying is the idea of judging with hypocrisy. You should not judge others while you are doing the same thing. It has nothing to do with exercising church discipline.
It will also protect the purity of the church, as Paul describes in 1 Cor 5. It may be the tool needed for repentance and restoration, as seen in 1 Cor and 2 Cor as well.
What you see on the outside is what it is in the heart. So the truth is that we do know their hearts. Confrontation should take place in a loving manner, with the goal of repentance and restoration. But if they fail to repent, they are to be disciplined from the church and church members are to have no social contact with them (1 Cor 5).
Sexual sin is to be immediately dealt with by excommunication. There is no one or two persons going to see the sexually immoral.
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DD, Why would you say this? Why wouldn't you interpret the teaching of 1 Cor 5 in light of the process of Matt 18? That seems to me to be the way to go.
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DD, Why would you say this? Why wouldn't you interpret the teaching of 1 Cor 5 in light of the process of Matt 18? That seems to me to be the way to go.
My statement about knowing the heart is being really misunderstood here. Depending on the sin, there could be deeper issues than just the sin, for example...sexual sins like pre marital sex or marital affair, it could be that the individual experienced a painful home life without real, pure love expressed and looks for that love and comfort in sinful ways of sex. Does that make the sin justifiable? Of course not! It does however shed light to the fact that the person needs more than a condemnation placed upon them, they need a better understanding of what real love is and deep healing of the wounds they suffer from.
Yes what the church leadership is doing has everything to do with the discipline itself. If the church leadership is in sin they literally have no right to point a finger and enforce discipline in that area, like do what i say not what i do. Proceeding in this fashion doesn't create for a purified church, but an anti family of God.
Yes what the church leadership is doing has everything to do with the discipline itself. If the church leadership is in sin they literally have no right to point a finger and enforce discipline in that area, like do what i say not what i do. Proceeding in this fashion doesn't create for a purified church, but an anti family of God.