Featured Church, Israel, or Both?

kyredneck · Jan 19, 2014

convicted1 said: ↑

The promises of God are for a seed and not seeds...
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:thumbsup::thumbsup:

One is my dove, my perfect one, One she is of her mother, The choice one she is of her that bare her, Daughters saw, and pronounce her happy, Queens and concubines, and they praise her. Sg of Sol 6:9 YLT

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

agedman said: ↑

Church, Israel, or Both?
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How many times must you be told that 'there is no distinction' before you finally come to grips with 'there is no distinction'? There are not two, there is only one.

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

kyredneck · Jan 19, 2014

thisnumbersdisconnected said: ↑

First of all, the ones on here using the catchy phrase "secret Messiah" may think they are being clever and synopsizing the concept of Israel and the church indeed being separate, but they reveal their own ignorance in doing so. It is a clear indication they don't understand the differences between Israel and the church, and it explains why, upon being challenged to show biblical evidence God has abandoned Israel, they cite Old Testament passages in which God threatened Israel with His wrath, and His placing them in bondage. None of those passages succeed in making their point. Chastisement is not abandonment. Their choice to cut off fellowship is not God's choice to cut off relationship.

In fact, after every single one of those passages, we see redemption, restoration, reconciliation, not abandonment or rejection. The last we see of Israel in the Old Testament are the prophecies of her restoration from captivity, the promises of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and particularly the faithfulness of God in keeping His chosen nation -- chosen as an example to the world of His love, grace, mercy and peace for those who love Him, even when they themselves act in faithlessness.

Paul, however (as I've said before) clearly details the continuing separateness of Israel and the church. The Romans 11:16-36 passage doesn't show Israel or the church as the tree, but as branches of the same tree. It stands to reason that neither group is the sole recipient of God's grace and mercy, neither is the "whole tree," so to speak. Rather, the tree illustrates how God works with mankind as a whole, and that God has separate rubrics for Israel and the church, but both are part of the outworking of His purpose among men in general. Neither rubric is insignificant in that overall scheme, and it is obvious the Bible addresses these two rubrics more so than any of His other programs for the world.

This does not deny that the church is called "the seed (or children) of Abraham. Quite clearly, that reality is stated in both the Old and New Testaments, particularly in Paul's writings.

Galatians 3, (NASB)
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
---
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
Obviously, the Scriptures, specifically Genesis 15:6, which Paul cites in this passage from the letter to the church at Galatia, foretold that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: " 'All nations will be blessed through you.' " Believers do not become "physical Jews" but partake of the same blessing as Israel had as a nation -- and her remnant still enjoys by faith -- in her relationship with Him, and of the blessings promised to all nations through the Seed of Abraham, who is Christ.

The foolishness of believing this negates, nullifies or cancels the Old Testament revelation to Abraham is near heresy in accepting the possibility that God could be dishonest in His dealing with Israel and withdraw the promises that He offered without requirement. Consider that after God had Abraham -- then still called Abram -- collect animals emblematic of an ancient covenant that has been documented extrabiblically, the account goes as follows:

Genesis 15
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him.
13 God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
14 "But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
15 "As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age.
16 "Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete."
17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces.
When the ancients performed this ceremony, as they passed between the pieces, they would ritually say, "May the same be done to me if I do not live up to the covenant we have made," or words to that effect. Notice, Abram didn't pass through the severed carcasses!! He was in a deep sleep. There was no requirement on him for this covenant to be fulfilled. There is no doubt, therefore, the promises will be fulfilled, including the promise of the physical land of Israel in the Thousand Year Reign.

God’s promises in the Old Testament are still valid, and God’s relationship with Israel as a chosen people points to the work of Christ as a Redeemer of the whole world. The Mosaic Law is still mandatory for all Jews who have not yet accepted Christ as their Messiah. True, they have no Temple by which sacrifices can be made and their sins "covered." But further consider, in Hebrews it is clear these sacrifices never actually remitted sin, and it is never said in Old or New Testament with finality that sins are forgiven by the blood-sacrifice of dumb animals.

Hebrews 9
6b ... the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship,
7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.
8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
All are saved -- Israel and the church, the body of Christ -- in the same fashion.

Hebrews 7
24 ... Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Paul, in Romans, makes it clear that the unbelief of some does not negate the ministry of God as promised Abram under that sky filled with uncountable stars.

Romans 3
3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."
God’s unconditional promises are not invalidated by the unfaithfulness of man. Nothing we do is ever a surprise to God, and He does not need to adjust His plans according to the way we behave. No, God is sovereign over all things -- past, present and future -- and what He has foreordained for both Israel and the Church will come to pass, regardless of circumstances. To think otherwise is to deny His faithfulness, power, and purpose.

Lest I be accused of derailing the thread, in answer to the OP, the Jeremiah passage affirms what I've said here. The faithful of Israel will be found perfected in Christ, and the promises made to Abram will be delivered to them as He said.

Done here.
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So d-CON, is all the above your composition, or should you have provided a link or a reference giving credit?

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