1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Church of the Nazarene vs. Anglican

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Michael Wrenn, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0

    HP: How's that Steaver?
     
  2. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, how do you account for the fact that from the first century on, up until Calvin, OSAS was virtually untaught and unknown?
     
  3. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    My views predate Arminius; they can be found in the early church. Not so for the 5 points of Calvinism.
     
  4. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know of holiness and pentecostal groups around here who act and believe as you describe. However, I thought the Nazarenes had gotten away from that and moved beyond it. Is that not true? If the Nazarene church is as you described, I could not go there. I have visited a Nazarene church only once, several years ago.
     
  5. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    If I ever wanted to join a Nazarene church, instead of just attend for fellowship, I would have to affirm one of the two following statements, according to the Manual:

    "...that subsequent to this [the new birth] there is the deeper work of heart cleansing or entire sanctification through the infilling of the Holy Spirit..."

    or:

    "...That believers are to be sanctified wholly, sub-sequent to regeneration, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ..."

    I would have trouble affirming this. For one thing, I believe in progressive sanctification and that the process is not completed -- that is, we are not completely free of sin -- until we reach heaven. So, to me, I would have to say that entire sanctification, or complete holiness, is not possible or accomplished in this life.

    Now, defining sanctification and holiness the way that Dr. Thomas Oord defines it -- the core notion of holiness being love -- is something I can accept. But to me, that's not what I would be affirming in either of the two statements above. Furthermore, even when defining holiness as love, I don't think we can be entirely or wholly perfect in love in this life. I think the only one who was that or could be that was Jesus. Of course I believe we should seek to become as near like Jesus as we can, but we cannot become entirely perfect here -- neither in holiness nor in love.

    Now I don't want to be like those whom the Quakers charged with "pleading for sin", but neither do I want or dare to suggest that I can be made perfect in holiness or love in this life.

    So, this is just another example of how I don't seem to fit anywhere. Maybe that's one reason why I started my own fellowship. But I don't have a local congregation, and it gets lonely out here in the spiritual boondocks. I really would like to fellowship with a local body of believers, but that may not be possible. I can't go along with believing something when I don't believe it. I still have membership in the small rural Baptist church I grew up in, but recommitting there is not an option, for several reasons.

    So, I must apologize for a comment I made to The Biblicist on another thread, in the heat of the moment, about him only being able to fellowship in communion with himself, as it looks like this might describe me. It seems that I am able to worship with anyone but to join no one. I've tried hard but am tired, so that's it, I guess -- unless the Lord plainly tells me what he wants me to do. He's not done it in all these many years, alas.
     
    #85 Michael Wrenn, Feb 20, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2012
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I have never researched who taught what and when. I studied the bible and concluded Jesus and the apostles taught OSAS.
     
  7. padredurand

    padredurand Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    4,541
    Likes Received:
    102
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again not born again and again and again and again.....

    You called OSAS a notion in an earlier post as if the very idea was foolishness. When the question is raised about eternal security it matters little whether one claims to be C or A or DoG. What is at question is what you have decided about the character of God.

    For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Romans 8:38-39 NAS77

    Neither the power or principalities, above or below can separate us from the great love of God but I can just throw up my hands and walk away from a personal relationship with Him through Jesus Christ? How can God guard my heat and mind against every agency in the universe except for my own stubborn will?

    "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
    John 10:27-29 NAS77

    Remember the TV show Kung Fu back in the seventies? In the opening the blind master says to young Kain, "As soon as you snatch the pebble from my hand you may go." Our omniscient Master says, "You can try to snatch the pebble from My hand but you will never be able to do so."
     
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,443
    Likes Received:
    182
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Unless one begins by understanding born-again one cannot understand OSAS. This is the first thing Jesus taught Nicodemus and Nic could not understand it at the time for Nic also thought salvation was of himself.

    Paul made it clear that this is not the case in Ephesians 2:8-9. John made it clear that a child of God cannot go on sinning as well. The flesh sins constantly, even in thoughts, however the spirit that has been regenerated is sealed by God forever a child.
     
  9. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fair enough.
     
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is not fair enough , it is a complete farce in reality. Steaver has not hammered out his beliefs of Calvinism on his own anvil. For whatever he claim he has not read or studied, those teaching him certanly have. Somewhere he has been greatly influenced with the errors of Calvinism. Steaver is no island to himself.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Padredurand, did you happen upon those beliefs antecedent to or subsequent to your tenure as a Nazarene pastor? Did you not have to take an oath and raise your right hand in agreement, promising to uphold the doctrines and covenants of the Nazarene Church to pastor one of their churches?
     
    #91 Heavenly Pilgrim, Feb 20, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2012
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: That was certainly not the Apostle Pauls testimony as a believer. He said it is NO LONGER I that liveth, but Christ that liveth within me. Notice the 'I' or the flesh had died....unless you want to say that the 'I" was his spirit.
     
  13. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,324
    Likes Received:
    0
    agreed!

    think that some baptists though would be wise to read and study Knowing God, by Dr packer!
     
  14. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,324
    Likes Received:
    0
    Think the Nazarene church was offshooted from westyln holiness groups...

    One stream went into pentacostalism, as they defined "second act of garce" as baptisism in the HG, while nazarenes saw holines living, while westyln saw second act of grace as sinless perfection...
     
  15. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    7
    Of course, John Wesley still (corrrectly) believed that a regenerated person could indeed apostasize and finally be eternally lost again.
     
  16. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    2
    Interesting that you enclose "correctly" as you do. How many before the time of Wesley actually believe that once a person was a believer that they could then also fall away?
     
  17. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    7
    Umm, quite a few actually, since OSAS (or, if you prefer, inevitable perservarance or unconditional security) really didn't take hold until after the time of Calvin, and then only within a subsection of Christendom. :cool:

    There's no real evidence of this doctrine (OSAS) being taught in the first several centuries of the Church's history. Even Augustine taught that not everyone regenerated would have the gift of perserverance.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,377
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Guess then Ole Tom is saying that the Holy Spirit would have to continuously repeat the whole salvation process everytime a person sins. What a bother!

    In that system of Salvation/Falling from Grace, do you also categorize sins? The Catholics do this with Mortal (the Bad Bad Sins) & Venial (the not so bad sins).

    That's gotta be both exhausting for the poor Holy Spirit, to say nothing for the confusion rendered for the Sinner. May I suggest you modify the whole process to Reformed Theology & consider the whole thing consolidated. :smilewinkgrin:

    It works for me! :laugh:
     
  19. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,324
    Likes Received:
    0
    Guess the westylns and others had right theology in their song about OSAS, but failed to apply iy into theology proper!

    "There is power/power wonder working power, in blood of the lamb"
     
  20. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,324
    Likes Received:
    0
    jesus and ALL the Apostles held to OSAS, as they saw God as BOTH ONE saving and keeping us...

    Are you smarter than them in this area?
     
Loading...