CHURCH PLANT- Can Calvinist and Non Cal, Neo-Pent do it.

Ok, not THAT got me laughing :laugh:

 

I'm sure there are non-Calvinists who don't know scripture but when they finally study the whole bible will come to see that God is who determines our steps as Jeremiah 10:23 and Proverbs 16:9 says.

But those people who have read the bible and still disagree with those verses and the myriad of other verses that tell us that God is in control of the universe including the minds and hearts of men, obviously don't believe God's word. And claiming that one can interpret a verse into the opposite of what it says isn't scriptural any more than claiming that man can add or subtract from any verse in the bible.

 

Carico, I love ya, but this is unfair and unjust to our brethren.

I am going to respond on a personal level. I was a non-cal yet a truly born-again child of God. I did not become saved when I came to understand the Scirptures where I could get called a Calvinist.

The same is true of Spurgeon. And when I was a "non-cal" I never disagreed with a verse. I just didn't understand it and see it the way they did. But I was equally as commited and devoted to the Bible and loved the Bible as any Calvinist.

Brother, you have gone too far and have become too zealous concerning calvinism...in my opinion. Our arminian and non-cal brothers are just that..our brothers in Christ. Let us love them.

 

:applause:

Thank you.

 

I can understand you disagree with Arminian/non Cal position but to call such things serving Satan is just plain delusional. Sorry, you won't get anywhere with that attitude.

Not true. You need to get your facts right first before you make your conclusions.

Darren

 

[Attack on salvation of others snipped. Matter of fact, whole post snipped by Administrator]

WARNING - IF THIS CONTINUES, YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN

 

There is a doctrinal distinction to make about how sinners come to believe in Christ. You are confusing free will/freedom of choice/responsibility together with God's work to convict the sinner, bringing them to believe and to repentance. They are not the same thing. An understanding of being a sinner needing a Savior doesn't imply a willingness to do anything about it.

They are non christians. You are confusing the whole issue and making Calvinism equal with christianity itself.

Darren

 

Well said. When we acknowledge that those we disagree with doctrinally are fellow christians that ought to put an end to the non cal = serving Satan expressions and/or unsaved.

I put attitudes like that as personality issues. Many Calvinists that I have spoke to have been graceful and helpful in explaining their theological differences and have not resorted to something that resembles childish schoolyard accusations. When we speak to one another we are bringing either glory or shame to Christ as those whom are supposed to represent Him in the world.

:saint:

Darren

 

If someone knocks you unconscious, heals you of blindness, you open your eyes (which is an involuntary reflex) and can see, how much credit for your ability to see do you give to your own free will? :laugh: None. That's what the Holy Spirit does to us once we are born again as he did to Paul. :wavey: Paul never said that he freely chose to believe. Ever.

 

This point has abosolutely no merit whatsoever, since you think no one but Calvinists have read, studied, understand, translated, commentaried, and preached on the whole of scripture.

What do you of those Calvinists who understood your view and was even a preacher of it, but in reading the scriptures saw it to not be accurately convey the Word of God and changed their views. Just as there are many Arminians and non-cals who became Calvinists, many Cals left as well.

What is most humourous is that it is the same Holy Spirit leading all of God's children into the Truth, and that no man who is saved can believe anything that God has not put into his heart.

And just so you know, it was due to studying the whole of the scriptures that turned or kept me from going into Reformed theology. There were to many logical assumptions, presuppositions, and to many scriptures that contradicted 'certain' aspects. Now you will hear the same thing from those who left my view and went into Calvinism. Now who is right?? I personally beleive neither is absolutely right but also that neither is abosolutely wrong either. The problem is that ALL theology is dervied from MAN's undertanding of what he sees in scripture. Therefore ALL theology is flawed to some extent.

Based upon this post, I am just letting you know that you are breaking BB rules as well as scriptural ones when presume God-hood and declare who is saved and who isn't amoungst believers of and in Christ.

 

Well, I have studied the whole of scripture and I am not a Calvinist. You have made a judgment that I "cannot be saved". You are treading on dangerous ground.

Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

My statement agrees with scripture: 1 Corinthians 11:19, "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you has God's approval."

Christ is not divided. So he will not tell one group of people that God changes hearts and minds and another group that people can decide to believe of their own free will because Jesus doesn't contradict himself. So one of them is a false teaching. And scripture clearly tells us that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast.

Again, Jeremiah would rather have not even been born than to have the calling God gave him. So not only was it not his free choice to speak God's word, he tried to resist God but could not because God's Spirit overpowered him as he tells us in Jeremiah 20:7.

 

Not in those exact words but close enough.
When he states, "Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden not your hearts.." It is apparent that God is dealing with them and they can reject it.

He also, in Rom 10:8, when speaking of believing quote from Deut 30:14-20. This specifically is about choosing to believe. What is most interesting is that in verse 19 it states chooses life, and in verse 20 it states, 'that you may or might' love God, cling to Him, obey Him, and obtain life. Notice that all of this comes 'after' believing, not prior to it.

However just to be clear, Paul never said he didn't freely choose to believe. Ever.

 

No, you are horrifically abusing God's word.
But again, you use a text irregardless of context. It seems to be yoru common flaw.

God didn't tell two different groups of people two different things, He told them one thing. And what you have is men taking God's word and interpreting as they understand it. No group is 100% correct and if you think that, then I would suggest you have a great deal more studying to do.

Or it could be that both are partly correct but neither exactly correct on the whole understanding. Maybe both could even be wrong

For those of us who have studied and can read the Greek and Hebrew can tell you it is not 'clear' as you 'wish' it were. Faith is a gift from God but not in the manner you contend. It is a gift in that no man would believe if God had not intervened but not in the sense that God 'gave' it to man, like giving a child a bike because he never had one.

Context man, CONTEXT. Do you even know the meaning of the word!

 

I'll toss in my own two guineas worth.

'Plant the church' with a good doctrinal standard (regardless of the specifics), and the rest should take care of itself.

You will lose some that way, along the way, but most likely will pick up some others who are glad for a strong stand, as opposed to some 'mealy-mouthed' 'double-speak' that attempts to satisfy the doctrinal vagaries of everyone.

Ed

 

Thanks, Ed for getting us back to the OP. Good advice.

The church planter must, repeat must, take the lead in the church's doctrinal stance. He must bring as much influence to bear as necessary to ensure that the new congregation gets it right as he sees it.

The worst thing one can do is water down doctrine, practice, ecclesiology in order to "attract" people. We already have plenty of churches like that.

 

I may be wrong, so someone correct me if I am. However, the last I read of Arminian belief they do not believe in Free-Will. That is a group separate from Arminians...correct?

Arminians believe the person is regenerated under the gospel message, if they accept the truth, the Spirit remains with them, if they do not accept the truth, the Spirit withdraws Himself from them.

This is not free-willism. Free will means a person hears and beliefs under their own free will and choice then they are regenerated.

bro. Dallas Eaton, II

Oh, and btw, we do not know who God has placed in Christ and made accepted in the Beloved before the foundation of the world. There are evidences that we may or may not see, but we cannot see the circumcision of the heart made without hands.

:wavey:

 

Wrong. You can google Arminian vs. Calvinist beliefs and see the differences.

 

Thank you for your Remonstrance:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040202...~gvcc/theology_notes/Calvin_and_Arminius.html

I don't think Arminianism is the same as free will ism a person believing free will believes they have an inward power derived from the image of God in man to choose or not choose to believe in Christ, then their choosing is what makes them to be regenerated. Arminians believe in a sense, God foreknew who would believe and predestinated these, the free-will believer believes nothing of predestination whatsoever all men can make themselves a child of God by their free choice. The latter denies the depravity of man in the original sin of Adam; the latter denies the enmity of the carnal mind against God; I don't see Arminius denying any of these things, I think he was wrong, but I don't think he denied depravity. A free-will person does deny the depravity of man in that he/she believes that person retains a 'spark' of the image of God in themselves whereby he/she believes in Christ and then becomes a regenerated child of God.

Read a little closer, ok? I found this link through the Hall of Church History.

But, thanks for forcing me to prove it, it was a good excercise.

May God Bless your efforts and keep you sound in the faith,
bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Wrong as this statement demonstrates:

#

How can one resist God if not by his own free will? He cannot because the Holy Spirit is stronger than any other [power including Satan and the human will as 1 John 4;4 tells us. So you are incorrect, Arminians do believe in the free will of man which is actually secular humanism. They also don't believe Romans 11:29, "For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable" so they don't believe many verses in the bible either. That's because they want to believe that God is at their beck and call, not the other way around. That's actually blasphemy.