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Featured Clear up confusion about tongues!

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by awaken, Nov 12, 2012.

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  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I can pray in the spirit; most people can, without speaking in tongues.
    Demonstrate where Paul calls speaking in tongues "praying in the spirit."
    And you can take it up with Paul. I already know what the Scripture teaches.
     
    #81 DHK, Nov 13, 2012
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The "spirit" he is referring to is not the Holy Spirit but "my" lower case "spirit."


    14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

    The following verses refer to the same "spirit" or "my" spirit versus "my" understanding or mind. Hence, he is not referring to the Holy Spirit at all. Instead, he is referring to a contrast within his own human nature - MY "spirit" versus MY "understanding.'
     
    #82 The Biblicist, Nov 13, 2012
  3. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    So do yoiu deny that Paul calls tongues "praying in the spirit?"

    "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." (1 Corinthians 14:14)

    "So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind." (1 Corinthians 14:15)

    "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." (1 Cor. 14:2)

    Tongues is praying to God...speaking to God! THat is prayer!~
     
    #83 awaken, Nov 13, 2012
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Again, he is not referring to the Holy Spirit at all but to "MY" spirit and "MY" understanding both of which are HUMAN faculties not the Holy Spirit.

    You need to study the use of "in the Spirit" where the Holy Spirit is referred to as you obviously have not the slightest understanding of that phrase or its meaning.
     
    #84 The Biblicist, Nov 13, 2012
  5. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    In Acts 2, who was magnifying God? THe disciples!
    Who gave them the utterance? THe Holy Spirit.
    The people were praying what the Holy Spirit gave them in a language they did not understand. BUT the crowd did understand what they were saying...they were declaring the wonderful work of God.

    Example:
    "Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5)
     
    #85 awaken, Nov 13, 2012
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You missed on each and every point, or deliberately tried to put words into my mouth which I didn't say. That is misrepresentation, and not the right thing to do. Note: I never said "You do not need the Holy Spirit to reveal understanding to you." See the deliberate misrepresentation. I was only speaking of the spiritual gifts.
    So he has helped you? I am sure your next door neighbor has too. That is not the topic here. The gifts have ceased. On what basis?
    1. They were signs to authenticate the apostles (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4).
    2. The apostles are dead and have been for over 2,000 years.
    Therefore there is no need for the "sign" of the gifts of the Spirit.
    Those are the facts.
    I back up my beliefs according to the Scripture. They are factual.
     
    #86 DHK, Nov 13, 2012
  7. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Yes, I do know the difference in my spirit and the Holy Spirit! My spirit is what was born again became one with His Spirit. It is in my spirit that the Holy Spirit gives me the utterance. Acts 2:4
     
    #87 awaken, Nov 13, 2012
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    So, you just change God's word to suit yourself? No amount of reasoning can change "MY spirit" and "MY understanding" unto "GOD'S Spirit" and "GOD'S UNDERSTANDING." - closed case!

    Paul does not "call" tongues "praying in the spirit" in 1 Cor. 14:14-16.

    Saints should operate by the LEADERSHIP and POWER of the Holy Spirit but that does not mean they do. Paul was rebuking them for ABUSE of spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14:13-17 is a rebuke not a commendation. Do you think exercising tongues contrary to God's word is "in the Spirit" and God is the author of such confusion?
     
    #88 The Biblicist, Nov 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2012
  9. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    The spiritual gifts are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

    So are you making light of how the Holy Spirit helps me?

    You are the one that said we do not need revelation!

    No you back up your theory while ignoring most scriptures!
    I have never denied signs authenticated the apostles...but that was not the only reason! They were to edify the church! THe church is still here!
     
    #89 awaken, Nov 13, 2012
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    False! Just because the Holy Spirit is in UNION with your spirit does not make them ONE as in SAME. You are in UNION with your wife but that does not mean you are ONE as in SAME but ONE as in UNITY with each other.

    "Our spirit bears witness WITH His Spirit" but they are not ONE as in SAME.
     
    #90 The Biblicist, Nov 13, 2012
  11. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I did not change them..read it again! I said my spirit ( I am body, soul and spirit) was changed born again, His Spirit dwells in my spirit! He is with me to guide me and direct my path..and will never leave me!

    He says when my spirit prays..it is tongues!

    I am not confused! The Word of God is plain!
    I agree that he was rebuking them...but that does not mean they do not exist!
    Paul's final word on tongues, and in fact the final word on tongues in the entire New Testament, is that speaking in tongues must not be forbidden. Christians today should be praying in tongues just as they did in the first century (following Paul's guidelines), because when it's done properly then it results in the edification of the speaker and of the church.
     
    #91 awaken, Nov 13, 2012
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    False! You did in fact claim that Paul called praying in tongues as praying "in the spirit" and you defended that as the HOLY SPIRIT.

    False! He was describing the present activity of his spirit not that praying in tongues IS CALLED praying in "my spirit." There are many things that can be done "in my spirit" other than praying in tongues. You can pray in your spirit the kind of prayer found by Jesus John 17. You can rejoice in spirit. You can be greived in spirit and none of these things are without COMPREHENSION. He is condemning prayin "in my spirit" WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING as he calls that "UNFRUITFUL" and asks "WHAT IS IT?" The implied answer is NOTHING FRUITFUL. When you do pray in tongues with understanding and yet do not interpret it for those hearing you it is equally UNFRUITFUL and "WHAT IS IT?" NOTHING good as it serves no profitable function but a showmanship.




    WITHIN THE QUALIFICATIONS PROVIDED IN THE PRECEDING CONTEXT which condemns your view of tongues. He is condemning praying "in my spirit" without understanding as it is UNFRUITFUL. He is denying that tongues are for believers or for church services (vv. 18-22) and thus RESTRICTS their usage in the church. Such restrictions would eventually discourage their use in the congregation as no one could be a show off as was their case before rebuke.


    Christians today should be praying in tongues just as they did in the first century (following Paul's guidelines), because when it's done properly then it results in the edification of the speaker and of the church.[/QUOTE]
     
    #92 The Biblicist, Nov 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2012
  13. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    1 Corinthians 14:1-3
    "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort." (1 Corinthians 14:1-3)

    Here are some of the important points in this passage:
    Paul described speaking to God in tongues, so this is a reference to the private form of tongues. When we are speaking to God in the Holy Spirit, we are praying in the Spirit.
    In the NIV this passage says, "he utters mysteries with his spirit," but notice how this phrase is translated in other versions of the Bible:
    "and in spirit he doth speak secrets" (Young's Literal Translation)
    "but in spirit he speaks mysteries" (Pocket Interlinear New Testament)
    "but in his spirit he speaks mysteries" (New American Standard Version)
    "howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries" (King James Version)
    "but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries" (1901 American Standard Version)
    "he utters mysteries by the Spirit" (New International Version, footnote)
    "because he is speaking secrets in the Spirit" (International Standard Version)
    "Yet in the Spirit he is speaking secret truths" (Wesley's New Testament)
    "but he utters mysteries in the Spirit" (Revised Standard Version)
    "in the (Holy) Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding]" (Amplified Version)

    In all of these versions, the translators had to decide whether or not the word "spirit" should be capitalized as "Spirit," and we can see that different translators made different decisions. However, the overwhelming agreement among these scholars is that when a person is praying "in tongues" then he is praying "in the spirit" or praying "in the Spirit." These phrases can all be used interchangeably because the Holy Spirit puts words into our spirits, not into our minds.

    "Praying in tongues" and "praying with his spirit" and "praying in the spirit" and "praying in the Spirit" all mean the same thing.
     
    #93 awaken, Nov 13, 2012
  14. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." (1 Corinthians 14:14)

    Paul said that when we pray in tongues, it's our spirits which are praying (through the Holy Spirit), not our minds (because our minds are unfruitful while we pray with our spirits, Paul said). I see "praying in tongues" and "praying with my spirit" and "praying in the Spirit" all mean the same thing.

    The Amplified Version of the Bible is often a useful study tool because it brings out various shades of meaning that might otherwise be lost in the translation from Greek to English. Here is this same verse in the Amplified Version:
    "For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive - bears no fruit and helps nobody." (1 Corinthians 14:14, AMP)
    In other words, when we pray in tongues, the Holy Spirit is providing the words to our spirits which we then speak out of our mouths. This bypasses our minds, which is why Paul said that his mind was unproductive when he prayed with his spirit. ...THis is what happen on the day of Pentecost..the Holy Spirit gave the utterance.

    So one type of praying is done with the mind, and another type of praying is done with the spirit. In this verse, Paul specifically said that the way he prayed with his spirit was by praying in tongues in the Holy Spirit. Again, "praying in tongues" and "praying with my spirit" and "praying in the Spirit" all mean the same thing.

    Notice that when we talk about prayer, we're talking about speaking to God. Therefore, in this verse Paul was referring to the private form of tongues (i.e. praying to God in the Holy Spirit, or "praying in the Spirit").
     
    #94 awaken, Nov 13, 2012
  15. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:18-19)


    Paul was thankful that he spoke in tongues more than anyone else. This is a reference to the private form of tongues, because in the very next sentence Paul said, "But in the church..." Therefore, Paul spoke in tongues more than anyone else outside of church, praising God privately in the Spirit. Paul was thankful that he spoke in tongues frequently because he had a high regard for the personal benefit that people can receive through the private use of tongues (recall that a few verses earlier Paul said that he would like for everyone to speak in tongues).

    Paul said that in church he would rather speak words of instruction (which people can understand), rather than an uninterpreted message in tongues (which people can't understand). In other words, it doesn't edify the church congregation when we use the private form of tongues in a public fashion (as if it's a message from God).
     
    #95 awaken, Nov 13, 2012
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Oh? Is there Scripture that says that we can deny gifts of the Holy Spirit? I don't recall seeing it myself....
     
    #96 annsni, Nov 13, 2012
  17. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Then why does he say that if there is no one to interpret, the person who would speak in tongues should be silent?
     
    #97 annsni, Nov 13, 2012
  18. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Are you not denying them now? If you do not believe in them or that they still exist..is that not denying them?
     
    #98 awaken, Nov 13, 2012
  19. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    How do you make that leap? That one must mean that it is a "private form"?
     
    #99 annsni, Nov 13, 2012
  20. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Or what if the tongues he spoke was to be able to speak to others in other languages that he was unfamiliar with? You make the leap that it is a private form of tongues - leaps that you seem to make frequently.
     
    #100 annsni, Nov 13, 2012
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