Commandment keeping

That is not what it says is it?
Jesus was speaking to his disciples. They were already saved. Obviously your conclusion is wrong.

The Rock is Jesus. Unless your foundation is Jesus you cannot be saved.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
--If you are saved you will have believed on Christ who will have become the foundation of your life. Has this happened in your life?

Was Jesus saying that this is the way to have eternal life? If so, have you sold all that you have, given it to the poor, and then followed Christ? Why not? You do want to go to heaven don't you? You have just proposed that this is the way to heaven, so you must practice what you preach. Sell all that you have; give it to the poor; follow Christ, and then you shall be saved. Not until you do that can you be saved. This you must do. Have you done that? I will await your answer on this one.

Baptism is a step of obedience after salvation. Have you taken it?

James writes to Christians here; not the unsaved. Look at the context, near the beginning of the chapter. He is addressing "my brethren."

Rather, the teaching here is that works are the fruit of our faith.

Those that fear God will do his will. That is a given.

Many get caught up in a misinterpretation and misapplication of these verses. Read a bit further. These verses are addressed to the Jews.

Yes, as it says in verse 10, at the Judgment Seat of Christ, a Judgment for believers only. At this judgment the believer's works will be judged, but not for salvation, for reward or lack of reward. Salvation is not in question here.

And none of it has to do with our salvation.

 

Agreed.

You must first BE a saint to "walk" as Romans 8 demands.

You must first BE holy (via the new birth, new creation, sanctification") to actually "KEEP" the Sabbath "holy".

that is all true.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Annsni
I would have the same bad feeling your speaking of if i was to stand before the Lord and tell Him "Save me Lord im an illegallist, i did nothing you commanded me to do"

 

In Matt 18 Peter asks how many times he should be required to forgive his neighbor. Christ response in Matt 18 shows the real principle behind forgiveness. In that parable a servant owes many years wages to the King - far more than he could repay in a lifetime. The King demands payment and declares that the evil servant and will be put in prison and all is goods confiscated ... and then the evil servant pleads for mercy for a chance to pay back the massive debt. Instead the King forgives the servant ALL his mammoth debt.

Later the servant is found to be unforgiving of a tiny debt owed to him by his fellow servant. He treats his fellow servant harshly. In the Matt 18 parable the king comes to the wicked servant and says "I forgave you ALL that debt - should you not have then forgiven your fellow servant his small debt?". IT is then that the debt forgiveness is revoked.

Notice that that basis for forgiving others is that the servant is himself fully forgiven and in gratitude extends to others - the kind of grace first granted him.

He was not to forgive his fellow servant so THAT the King WILL forgive him -- rather he was to forgive BECAUSE the King had forgiven him.

Christ's statement in Matt 6 is spoken to his disciples - to those who were forgiven - he does not say "once you have forgiven a certain number of people THEN My Father will forgive you" - rather his argument is that BECAUSE God has forgiven them much - they should likewise forgive others.

(Made in detail in the Matt 18 illustration"

Again this is a true statement - but as we see in the parallel account in Matt 7 "The good tree produced good fruit". IT is because they ARE saved, they are born-again that they can engage in those good works - keeping God's Commandments etc.

True - and in the case of James 2 and Romans 2 the context is a future judgment and future justification. It is based on deed for as 2Cor 5:10 states "We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to given an account for the deeds done...whether they be good or evil".

But there is a justification past aspect as well that applies here. You find it in Romans 3 and Romans 5:1 - "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God".

It is in justification past that you are born-again, justified and created as a new creation with a new heart given to you and the Law of God written on your heart and mind (Heb 8:10).

IT is AS a born-again justified saint then that you walk as Romans 8 says "By the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh".

And that Future justification when "not the hearers of the Law are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified" Rom 2:11-13 it is the born-again saint that will be shown to have been a "doer" and it is the one who rejects salvation who will be shown to live in violation of God's Law.

In justification past - you change from being lost to saved.

In justification future -- there is no change. You are merely shown - by your works to either BE a "good tree" or to BE "a bad tree".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Your avoidance or the entire chapter of Romans 6 --- "noted".

Your wrenching the idea to the point of calling the entire chapter of Romans 6 "a proof text" -- noted.

Oh wonderful - so after my posting the Romans 6 chapter in large portion about half a dozen times - we are finally about to get you to "look" at scripture instead of circling back to your "gaming" tactics for avoiding the text?

Apparently you had no actual intention of looking at the scripture under discussion.

I am one of the many that prefers an actual doctrinal discusssion with someone who values the text of scripture - over "gaming".

There just may come a day when you too will step up to that plate.

Until then - :sleeping_2:

in Christ,

Bob

 

When the wicked dead are judged and the books are opened before the Great White Throne of Judgment in Rev. 20, the only thing that could possibly make a difference to their final destination, would be if there names were found written in The Book of Life, and keeping the commandments will not be what places or preserves your name within it.

 

There are two judgments in Rev. One is in Rev 14 "The hour of His judgment has come" and this is a message that goes out to all the earth - before the 2nd coming. And before the image to the beast is setup.

When Christ comes He says "My reward is with me" - the reward for the saints is already determined before he arrives. In Daniel 7 this point is made very clear "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" and then - and only then - does persecution of the saints on earth - end. Only then do we see the saints inherit the kingdom. Only then is Christ given the dominion.

Then in Rev 20 after the millennium - we see another judgment. The GWT judgment that deals with the dead - "over whom" the second death DOES have power. These are the wicked and they are judged "according to their deeds".

All of them are thrown into the lake of fire.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I'm not going to get off of my earlier statement by agreeing with all that you have written in this post. Let me just ask, by not disagreeing or challenging me on my previous post, I would be led to believe that you do agree with it. Right or wrong?

 

I do agree that they have no amount of "good works" sufficient to save those guys in Rev 20 that are "judged by their deeds". For "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". The only role that the law serves for the lost - is to condemn them and show that they need salvation.

In fact their deeds -- their fruits will "Show" that they are "bad trees" as Christ describes it in Matt 7.

It will merely confirm their fate.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I do not believe that commandment keeping will record your name in the Book of Life at anytime. We are saved by grace through faith, certainly not by our own works and effort. When Christ was asked how one may work the works of God, Jesus' reply was, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

 

Commandment keeping is not how the lost become saved.

in Romans 5:1 - "Having been justified by faith - we have peace with God".

Romans 10 - "with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness, with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Nor is it what keeps one saved.

 

Christ said "by their fruits you SHALL know them" - Matt 7 - turns out Christ was "right".

So too when He adds "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7

Paul said in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" -- turns out Paul was inspired by God.

John 14:15 Christ said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" - turns out Christ was the Son of God.

In 2Cor 5:10 Paul argues that the deeds done in the body Do have weight in the judgment "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the DEEDS done in the body whether they be GOOD or EVIL".


Then Paul adds this amazing statement in complete agreement with Christ's Matt 7 statement and even explaining the judgment process in detail


Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be [b]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Illustration:

A WWII veteran survivor of a particularly nasty battle where many US soldiers died - is asked "How did you survive" -- his answer "I avoided getting shot by bullets and blown up by bombs". The questioner then says "yes that is what had to happen for you to survive - but what did you do to avoid them" -- his answer "pray and follow all the saftey precautions we were trained to follow".

Avoiding the bullets and bombs is the "result" of prayer and effort in that case, and avoiding being shot was necessary to "survive" but the "how to survive" is not "avoid bullets" because that is the result of something else.

In the same way - Keeping God's commandments is the result of a born-again saved new-creation that "walks by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" - who chooses to honor and obey the Word of God - instead of rebelling against it. But in this free will system - the saints may choose at any time to stop - to cease to persevere.

In fact Paul describes in Gal 5:4 those who have "fallen from Grace" and have been "severed from Christ"

So Paul says in Romans 11 "You should FEAR for you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them NEITHER will he spare you".

And Christ said in "Matt 18" regarding his parable illustrating "forgiveness revoked" - "SO shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Commandment keeping is evidence of one's faith and love of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is not what preserves one's salvation. I would hate to see the day where the keeping of my soul and the preservation of my salvation was contingent upon my own abilities. Even Paul as great a man as he was said, "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Then two verses later he tells Timothy something along the same lines.
"That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
Tis the strength and grace of the Lord Jesus that has kept me saved since 1975.

 

Well, if that is true then Jesus need not have said anything on the matter. Do you actually think that scripture was relevant to only his “saved” disciples? No - they were to go out and teach the Gospel which is clearly why He said this. Further, what about those “saved” disciples who left and no longer followed him in John 6:66? Were they still saved?

Based upon what – your predilection for ignoring the obvious? Do you actually believe that the Father will forgive your sins if you refuse to forgive the transgressions of others? But don’t take my word for it – listen to Jesus himself!

Matthew 6:9-13
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory,
for ever and ever.

Amen – Jesus is the cornerstone!

Taking your premise to its ultimate conclusion… If I am saved, I will have believed on Christ and he will therefore be the foundation of my life. Thus, I will do his will as if an automaton. Unfortunately, this rules out free will and sin – which can also be the absence of DOING his will. Is sin absent from your life, DHK? You can dance around that scripture all day and it still says what it says.

continued….

 

continued...

For that individual he most certainly was saying it - after all, that was the question posed to him.

Jesus said, and I quote “…If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Do I follow him? I try hard – but often fail. Am I perfect, no. Will I have treasure in Heaven? If I get there, then you bet!

I didn’t propose it – Jesus did! As to selling all that I have and following him – He is no longer on the Earth so it would be impossible for me, you, or anyone else to do that in the context of this scripture passage.

What does it say there, DHK? It says “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Nowhere does scripture state that “…Baptism is a step of obedience after salvation.” That would be your reformed theological opinion and one that cannot be backed up by scripture, which I find rather ironic in that Sola Scriptura is the doctrinal mainstay of many (but not all) Protestant denominations.

Hogwash! Look at it in context...

Here, James is making a simple analogy; faith is made analogous to the body and works are made analogous to the spirit. As the body and spirit are both necessary for life (if we lose our spirit we lose our life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for life. Faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. Thus, just as in physical life one needs the body and the spirit, for eternal life one needs faith AND works.

The "teaching" couldn’t be clearer.

So, if I fear God I will always do his will like some automaton? I doubt that can be said of anyone on the planet. Please clarify...

So what would that “lack of reward” be - A shack in lieu of a mansion? Rivers of zinc instead of gold?

You conveniently ignore Romans 2:5-7 which preceded 2 Corinthians 5:8-10 in my original posting.

I'll break this down again for you...

It could not be more obvious that the judgement spoken of here most certainly IS about salvation and it includes EVERYONE. Your position is completely unbiblical.

Peace!

 

True - belief is necessary. However, notice that the verse states that you WILL be saved - not that you SHALL be saved. Belief is an assent of the will and as such, it can be changed. One can certainly fall away and have one's name erased from the book of life.

Again - note the use of the word "will..."

Great! I'll just call on the name of the Lord and - bingo - a free ticket to heaven. What a sweet deal... (That word "will..." just won't go away will it?)

Look, it is abundantly clear from scripture (that is, if you take scripture in its totallity) that this is a process and NOT a one time shot. Here's something that I've posted for you before - to which, as I recall, you never responded.

"I have been saved"
Ephesians 2:4-5:
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

2 Cor 5:17 “So whoever is in Christ is a new creation”

"I am being saved"
1 Corinthians 1:18:
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 15:2 “Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast (persevere) to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain”.

"I will be saved"
Mark 13:13:
You will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Rom 5:9 “How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath”.

And speaking of the "wrath"...


Romans 2:5-7
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay EVERYONE according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

Let's break it down...

It seems that you have a big theological problem with other parts of scripture. I posted this to you before and all I got was some non-biblical repsonse regarding something about rewards...

Peace!