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Communion and the sick

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by MikeS, Aug 23, 2003.

  1. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    You are mistaken regarding Lutheran beliefs. Please read my earlier posts on this thread. Lutherans believe that Christ is present in bread and wine according to His Word not according to our command. We are told to eat and to drink. We are not told to reserve a portion of the sacrament for latter use.

     
  2. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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  3. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    Any church that calls itself Lutheran and considers itself Lutheran is, of course, Lutheran.

    That some Lutherans don't consider other Lutherans to be Lutherans is just an intra-Lutheranism squabble. Individual Lutheran congregations switch Lutheran denominational affiliation all the time; they were Lutheran before they switched and Lutheran after they switched.
     
  4. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    What if one of your Anabaptist churches suddenly started accepting members who were baptized as infants but refused to be rebaptized as adults. Would you still consider these churches to be Anabaptist?

    These "Lutheran" churches are basically doing the same thing. They are communing people who deny the Real Presence. This is totally against our Lutheran Confessions. They are bringing judgment on themselves and all those who do not discern the Lord's body. How can they be considered Lutheran? They no longer have a true connection to our historic faith.
     
  5. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    What if one of your Anabaptist churches suddenly started accepting members who were baptized as infants but refused to be rebaptized as adults. Would you still consider these churches to be Anabaptist?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Some liberals have begun doing that.
     
  6. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Brother Bill --

    Actually, on a 95 degree summer day, the vestments are MISERABLY HOT!! :D :D :D

    One thing that really appeals to me regarding not only the vestments we wear, but the entire makeup and decor of the parish is that IT LOOKS LIKE A CASTLE. In other words, it is a building which is FIT FOR AND LOOKS LIKE A KING LIVES IN IT!!!

    When I was Presbyterian, I became convinced of the Preterist position and of the fact of the kingdom existing NOW....not in some futuristic Premillenialist fairy tale. Christ is KING --- NOW.

    As I meditated upon this, I became really desirous that I become a love servant of the Great King of Glory. Such as setting as St. Ann's is helpful in keeping before my mind that I am indeed a servant -- and yet a son beloved. Son of the King, imagine that for a sinner. (Or as we say in the prayer before recieving the Eucharist) "first among sinners".

    Carson, thank you for keeping that picture on your site. I appreciate it.

    Brother Ed
     
  7. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Interesting turn the discussion has taken here.

    Have you ever looked at the origins of the Lutheran church with the same eye? That in order to start your church, Luther himself had to break from a true connection with the historic faith?

    As far as discerning the Body in communion, how closely have you looked into the succession of bishops of your church? How do you know that a valid line of orders was maintained?

    Or would you not consider a valid ordination to be necessary to the consecration of the elements? I am guessing that a valid ordination would be crudial to you in this regard.
     
  8. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Originally posted by trying2understand:

    Have you ever looked at the origins of the Lutheran church with the same eye? That in order to start your church, Luther himself had to break from a true connection with the historic faith?


    Did Luther break from the historic faith? Or, did the Roman Catholic Church break from the historic faith?

    Luther recognized that the Roman Church had departed from the apostolic doctrine of justification. Many Germans agreed with him. They wrote the Augsburg Confession which called upon the Roman Church to reform itself. Unfortunately, the Roman Church would not reform. So the Church of the Augsburg Confession(Lutheran) was organized. It is now the only true visible church of God on earth.

    As far as discerning the Body in communion, how closely have you looked into the succession of bishops of your church? How do you know that a valid line of orders was maintained?

    Or would you not consider a valid ordination to be necessary to the consecration of the elements? I am guessing that a valid ordination would be crudial to you in this regard.


    Apostolic succession is not necessary. Each church retains the authority to call and ordain its own Pastors (Eph 8:4). The ordination is the confirmation of a proper call.
     
  9. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Considering that Eastern Orthodox churches, and the other ancient Christian churches, such as the Abyssinian church, the Armenian church, the Coptic church, etc. (some of which broke from the Catholic Church between A.D. 400 and 1000) hold the same view of the Eucharist that the Catholic church holds, I would have to say that it was Luther that broke from the historic faith.


    True, the ordination is the confirmation of a call, however that does not make Apostolic Succession unneccessary.

    I would repeat my first statement again concerning Apostolic Succession. Your view is not in keeping with the historic faith as evidenced by ancient Churches that seperated from the Catholic Church early on which hold valid Apostolic Succession.

    Having broken succession, there probably is no other position available to you other than denial, except perhaps than to embrace the historic faith. [​IMG]
     
  10. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

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    The Orthodox don't believe in transubstantiation!
     
  11. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    The Eastern Orthodox do not use the word transubstantiation but do believe that the bread and wine are the Body and Blood of Christ.

    But that isn't even what we were talking about.

    We are talking about the necessity of valid orders through an unbroken line of Apostolic Succession for a true Communion.
     
  12. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Oh yes we do!!!

    We just don't call it by that name. You see, we Orthodox were never bothered by the Protestant Rebellion like the Catholic Church was, therefore, there was no need for a definitive council to oppose the heresies which were popping up like mushrooms on a dewey morning. "Transubstantiation" came from a need to definitively clarify the Eucharist in the face of heresies which the East never faced.

    But we DO believe it is really, truly, and substantially THE Body and Blood of our Lord, the very same Body and Blood which was on the Cross in time some 2000 years ago. From the earliest writings of the Fathers of the Church, you will see East and West united in this one core belief, and further more, you will find no such ideas against the Real Presence until the Protestants started popping up in the 16th century.

    Brother Ed
     
  13. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    The Eastern Orthodox do not use the word transubstantiation but do believe that the bread and wine are the Body and Blood of Christ.

    But that isn't even what we were talking about.

    We are talking about the necessity of valid orders through an unbroken line of Apostolic Succession for a true Communion.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I think we've all veered off topic. But let me try to get back by observing that Roman Catholic priests do not have a valid order of Apostolic Succession because they deviate from the apostolic doctrine due to innovations such as "transubstantiation" and "the sacrifice of the mass." Despite that, the priests still offer a true Communion at their churches because:

    1. There is a clear intent to offer and receive the Holy Supper.
    2. The priests are divinely called to speak in the stead of Christ.
    3. The priests speak the Words of Institution in the consecration.
    4. The priests use the proper elements (unleavened wheat bread and grape wine).

    However, with respect to administering to the sick, only the first is definitely true. The other three are doubtful. There is no steward of the mysteries present to speak the Words of Christ and only the Host is offered.
     
  14. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Historic Christendom: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Armenians, Coptics, Indian Orthodox Church and others, agreed upon one important factor, the necessity of Apostolic Succession.

    Each church believed that the Apostles had been granted spiritual authority over the Church of Christ . Each believed that authority had been passed from generation to generation through a lineage of bishops, each of whom had received his authority by the laying-on-of-hands from another bishop. Each assumed that the ultimate basis of ecclesiastical authority of a bishop rested in the possession of a valid apostolic succession.

    This succession of authority resides in the Catholic Church. Lutherans can make no such claim.
     
  15. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Does "Historic Christendom" agree that the succession of authority resides in the Catholic Church?
     
  16. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    John, please reread my previous post.

    I said that historic Christendom agreed upon the necessity of Apostolic Succession and what it means, namely the handing down of authority from Christ through the Bishops by a laying on of hands.

    I know that it resides in the Catholic Church because it is possible to trace historical records backwards to prove it.

    It is also possible to trace historical records to prove that the Lutheran Church lacks such succession.
     
  17. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    Originally posted by trying2understand:
    It is also possible to trace historical records to prove that the Lutheran Church lacks such succession.

    I know my synod does not follow the Apostolic Succession tradition. We don't even have bishops. Whether other synods that have bishops follow the tradition, I can not say.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that the tradition was interrupted in Germany when the RC bishops refused to ordain Lutheran bishops during the Reformation.
     
  18. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    After doing some research on the internet, I found that the Swedish and Finnish Lutheran Churches maintain the Apostolic Succesion tradition (the Lutheran Confessions do not oppose the tradition).

    Peter Magnus of Vesteras of Sweden was consecrated bishop in Rome in 1524 by the Pope. He later became a Lutheran and passed on the succession to Lars Petri, the first Lutheran archbishop of Uppsala in 1531.

    [ August 28, 2003, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
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