Comparing two similar parables

James_Newman · Oct 21, 2004

well said Jim

av1611jim · Oct 21, 2004

Dr. Bob;
Care to explain just exactly WHAT a parable is for if not to learn a TRUTH from Jesus?
And is not TRUTH = doctrine?
Doctrine is the same as a teaching is it not?
If so then what do you suppose Jesus is teaching here?
In my experience, a teacher will use an illustration to TEACH a point and usually conclude the teaching with the MAIN point so his students will leave the 'lecture' with the MAIN point fresh in his mind.
It appears as though Jesus KNEW this.
Care to refute this fact?
In His service;
Jim

Dr. Bob · Oct 21, 2004

We can see truth ILLUSTRATED but oh, be careful trying to make a story teach DOCTRINE. Vast difference. You don't TEACH the story. You use it to let a crack of light in on a particular point.

Have you cut off your hand or foot or eye? We understand that Jesus is NOT teaching doctrine or we would all go maimed into heaven.

There are hundreds of stories Jesus/others used in the Scripture that cannot be made to "walk on all four".

[Aside: Or they will lead to some Wacoian doctrine. Taking parables and applying them was David Koresh, the Adventist preacher, favorite method of "understanding deep doctrine". Did an interesting study on his "hermeneutic" some years back. Not implying that one who tries to suck doctrinal truth from every word of a parable will end up like him. But where do people GET false doctrine?]

James_Newman · Oct 21, 2004

Or we will all be going two-eyed, two-handed and two-footed into hell?

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Where do I line up to get my cross? He said it was BETTER to go into life having one eye than to be CAST INTO HELL. But if your not willing to pluck it out, you need to make it stop offending. The warning is not figurative.

av1611jim · Oct 21, 2004

So, Bob;
Just what is the Truth you would say Jesus is illustrating, if not the Truth we are telling you it is?

I submit, sir, you are now in a corner.
In His service;
Jim

Dr. Bob · Oct 22, 2004

Get a grip, bro!! What principle is taught? Pretty obvious. God is 100% in control of this world and He gives gifts to men. Men, in turn, are answerable to the King.

Now beyond that what would you think it is illustrating?

michelle · Oct 22, 2004

Maybe the parables are speaking to the Jews of Israel in particular, but specifically during the tribulation period - 70th week of Daniel? Although, I very much believe the parables are for us also and are scriptures, and for doctrine (100%), however, I do think that the parables are speaking specifically about the last week of Daniel, and when Jesus Christ comes to reign in the Millenial Kingdom, and these parables are speaking about those on earth when He returns. I do think they can apply to the churches, but they are specifically about Israel and the second coming of Christ to reign.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

James_Newman · Oct 22, 2004

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Get a grip, bro!! What principle is taught? Pretty obvious. God is 100% in control of this world and He gives gifts to men. Men, in turn, are answerable to the King.

Now beyond that what would you think it is illustrating?
Click to expand...

I believe God has revealed the key to interpretting these kinds of teachings already. Throughout the scriptures, almost without fail, when supposedly figurative, parabolic teachings are revealed, the primary action upon the subject, or the warning, is literal. Why should men worry about being answerable to the King, if the King has not the power to back up his authority?

Genesis 37
5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Genesis 44:14 And Judah and his brethren came to Joseph's house; for he was yet there: and they fell before him on the ground.

These figurative subjects, Josephs brothers, who were represented by wheat and stars in his dreams, did indeed literally bow down before him. We can see this principle in the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Matthew 13
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The subjects in the parable are figurative representations, but the action, gathering them and casting them into the fire, is literal. Those wicked servants who didn't put their money to work, will literally be cast into outer darkness. Those enemies will literally be slain before him.

michelle · Oct 22, 2004

Yes, but I think that this parable is speaking specifically to Israel. God is not finished with Israel, and these parables and scriptures are going to be preached during tribulation by the Jews, that the Kingdom of God is at hand. This being the literal or physical kingdom the second time. The first time was the spiritual kingdom - the church which was and is a mystery. God has always dealt with Israel in the physical, and the church spiritually. This is how I understand this.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

James_Newman · Oct 22, 2004

Certainly God has much left to do with Israel in the last days. But I don't see how we can divorce all the parabolic warnings from ourselves. That is surely a common teaching. The Christians get all the blessings and the jews get all the punishments in scripture. But I don't think you could make the case for the Jews being called servants of the Lord. Would that mean that Jesus was preaching works salvation for the Jews? By the works of the law shall no flesh be saved. These parables are teaching believers the same thing that is taught in others, just with different words. Look at this one:

Luke 12
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Peter had to ask who the parable was addressed to, and the Lord basically answered 'Who is that faithful servant?' We cannot expect to reap the blessings promised to the faithful, without being one of the faithful. The Lord calls that servant blessed, who He finds doing His will when He returns.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

michelle · Oct 22, 2004

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36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
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I have no doubt that the parables are meant for us, and are very applicable to the churches. However, this is a very important verse in the above that mentions Jesus "return from the wedding". This is speaking of the church (the bride) who is in heaven prior to the second coming, who recieves her wedding garment, and is then called HIS WIFE. We return with Jesus Christ as HIS WIFE, as the marriage has taken place IN HEAVEN and the marriage SUPPER takes place on earth.

It is dangerous for us to NOT separate in the scriptures, what is meant for ISRAEL and what is meant for the CHURCH.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

James_Newman · Oct 22, 2004

Ok, really last post, and I mean it this time

Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The city (the Bride) is adorned with the rightousness of the saints. Christ is not going to allow unrighteous Christians to spot His bride.

Psalm 132:9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

michelle · Oct 22, 2004

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The city (the Bride) is adorned with the rightousness of the saints. Christ is not going to allow unrighteous Christians to spot His bride
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What makes a christian "righteous"? Is is not by Faith? Does not works follow faith? Is it not Christ and blood that is righteous? Is not God able to keep us? If we are truly saved, then we will strive NOT TO SIN, and if we do, God is able to keep us from falling, by correcting us. If we truly love him we obey Him and REPENT, that is ask for forgiveness, and turn from that sin. Jesus Christ is our High Priest in Heaven, ever making intercession for the saints. If we are not heeding the Lord, he will punish us while we are still here in the flesh, in whatever way He deems, to correct and chastise us to bring us to repentance, and if the Holy Spirit is with us, He will convict us. However, if we do not turn, He will not allow us to continue further in sin and we truly won't if we truly love him. Jesus paid that debt, and his promise is true and faithful.

What is the wedding garment being spoken of? Is this wedding garment being spoken of, the wedding garment of the guest? What about the separation of the goats from the sheep? This is speaking of the millenial reign, when Jesus comes to reign, he separates those who believed and those who did not. Remember, there are people living on earth, when Jesus returns.

The millenial kingdom is the marriage supper, or the marraige feast. Israel are the guests or friends of the groom, at this feast. What is the outer darkness? It is not hell. It is outside of the Holy City.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

HankD · Oct 22, 2004

On what do you base this assumption? Why would Christ call an unsaved man His servant? How do you arrive to the conclusion that this servant is a counterfeit? Does Christ not know His servants from the unsaved?
Click to expand...

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

HankD

av1611jim · Oct 22, 2004

Michelle said;"If we are not heeding the Lord, he will punish us while we are still here in the flesh, in whatever way He deems, to correct and chastise us to bring us to repentance, and if the Holy Spirit is with us, He will convict us. "

Most of this is true.
What you cannot support with Scripture is that part about the chastisements of the Lord being in this life only.
If we receive blessings of the Lord in this life and the one to come, then why is it so hard for you to realize that punishment may extend into the next?
Remember this; we are not talking about eternal punishment for sin. That issue is already settled. What we are talking about is the temporary chastening of the Lord upon unfaithful and disobedient christians during the Kingdom age while the faithful enjoy the special blessing of reigning with Him in the Kingdom. You cannot show in Scripture anywhere that the disobedient get this reward.
While it is true that we are told that our works are judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ and that some will suffer loss and still be saved; we must ask, what is it that they lose?
You may reply, 'rewards' of course. And we then ask, what are those rewards?
The common answer is crowns or some other things. While we contend that the reward is ruling and reigning with Him.
Therefore if your works are burnt up at the Judgement Seat and you lose your rewards, you have lost your place in the Kingdom. But at the end of the Kingdom age you will be saved, "Yet so as by fire".
Do you get it now? You may not agree. But you cannot show in the Scriptures that this is not true.
In His service;
Jim

James_Newman · Oct 22, 2004

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />On what do you base this assumption? Why would Christ call an unsaved man His servant? How do you arrive to the conclusion that this servant is a counterfeit? Does Christ not know His servants from the unsaved?
Click to expand...

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]Thats a broad brush you paint with. By your reasoning, even the antichrist himself is encompassed in this 'servant'.

1Cor 7
22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

We are His servants, because He bought us with His blood.

Dr. Bob · Oct 22, 2004

All of creation, even the demons of hell and yes, the antichrist, do the will of the one sovereign Lord.

Servant is a neutral word. It may at some times refer to me (a servant of sin who is now, by grace, a servant of God) or to any servant, good, bad or ugly.

Servant simply shows ownership/authority of another and such are the verses Hank relayed, that all creation is a "servant" of God.

HankD · Oct 22, 2004

Thats a broad brush you paint with. By your reasoning, even the antichrist himself is encompassed in this 'servant'.
Click to expand...

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Psalms 155:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

HankD

michelle · Oct 22, 2004

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Therefore if your works are burnt up at the Judgement Seat and you lose your rewards, you have lost your place in the Kingdom. But at the end of the Kingdom age you will be saved, "Yet so as by fire".
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Hebrews 12

1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10. For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

...........

23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26. Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29. For our God is a consuming fire.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

av1611jim · Oct 22, 2004

Please, SOMEBODY, show me where the disobedient get to enter the Kingdom with Jesus. I really would like to know this. I am not kidding.
You see, I have 2 brothers who are saved. All three of us were saved as kids in a SBC revival meeting. We were all baptized. We all loved the Lord as kids.
Then we grew up and today they want nothing to do with returning to serving the Lord. They have been hardened by sin. My heart aches for them. They are so miserable. They know what is right but will not do it.
So I am asking those of you who think the disobedient get to enjoy the Kingdom along with the faithful to please show me the Scriptures for it. It saddens me that my brothers may miss out.
If you can show me Scriptures then I can be at peace.
In His service;
Jim

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