1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Complicating Salvation

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rockytopva, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    58
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    And the Apostle Paul boldly proclaims...

    8 ... The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. - Romans 10

    Salvation is supposed to be very easy to receive! We cant make it so ridiculously complicated that none can go in!

    I am a supporter of the bible broadcasting network and am also supporting a niece in going to Liberty University in Lynchburg, VA. I am also very active in the media ministry at work at have shared the gospel with many. I am Pentecostal, but not anti-Baptist either. One guy, after reading one of the books I gave him, wanted to get saved, but not in the Pentecostal Holiness church that I attended. He explained to me that he was brought up Baptist and would rather go to a Baptist church.

    A guy I worked with is a Calvinistic Baptist by the name of Ray and I looked him up. Ray said they had a Franklin Graham testimonial film that Sunday night and there I brought my friend. After the film he went tearfully up... But there was no altar! They took him to a room, in which I followed, and then proceeded to talk him out of it! I am like... He has tears running down his cheek! The man is ready to get saved! We then prayed the sinners prayer and my friend got saved.

    A lot of denominational folk are like the old Pharisee, as the scripture bares witness....

    But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. - Matthew 23:13
     
  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,627
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So, what is your point? The message of the gospel is simple, I will grant you that. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (Acts 16:31). The Greek word for believe is the same word for faith, i.e. they mean the same thing. Repentance from sin is also part of the gospel message. Paul said in Acts 17:30, "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent". Also, the church in Jerusalem, upon hearing that the gospel had gone forth to the Gentiles said in Acts 11:18, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.” See also 2 Corinthians 7:10.

    Turning from sin is as much a part of the gospel as belief/faith. It does not complicate the gospel, it reveals the life-changing effect of the gospel in the life of the new Christian. The gospel transcends denominational boundaries because it is not man-made. The gospel is complicated when it is falsely presented. Say that prayer! Raise that hand! Come to the altar! Sign your spiritual birth certificate! These things complicate the gospel because they turn it into a formula instead of how the Bible presents it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    16,988
    Likes Received:
    1,611
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is no "Altar" in a baptist church.....
    The cross is our Altar.....The Father accepted the sacrifice.....
    You want a man made fleshly gimmick, to do what only the Holy Spirit in fact does....

    You cannot replace the Holy Spirit....you do not know he was ready for anything.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    58
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I simply do not believe revival is possible without....

    1. A message preached with conviction and unction in the Holy Spirit
    2. A following altar service where saints and sinners alike are invited for prayer.

    [​IMG]

    Too many people these days have their own ego confused with the unction of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not human ego!
     
  5. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    58
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    And to describe the old altar service we turn back the time to the mid-eighteen hundreds, where a young man by the name of GC Rankin moves to Georgia and into a church in revival...

    After the team had been fed and we had been to supper we put the mules to the wagon, filled it with chairs and we were off to the meeting. When we reached the locality it was about dark and the people were assembling. Their horses and wagons filled up the cleared spaces and the singing was already in progress. My uncle and his family went well up toward the front, but I dropped into a seat well to the rear. It was an old-fashioned Church, ancient in appearance, oblong in shape and unpretentious. It was situated in a grove about one hundred yards from the road. It was lighted with old tallow-dip candles furnished by the neighbors. It was not a prepossessing-looking place, but it was soon crowded and evidently there was a great deal of interest. A cadaverous-looking man stood up in front with a tuning fork and raised and led the songs. There were a few prayers and the minister came in with his saddlebags and entered the pulpit. He was the Rev. W. H. Heath, the circuit rider. His prayer impressed me with his earnestness and there were many amens to it in the audience. I do not remember his text, but it was a typical revival sermon, full of unction and power.

    At its close he invited penitents to the altar and a great many young people flocked to it and bowed for prayer. Many of them became very much affected and they cried out distressingly for mercy. It had a strange effect on me. It made me nervous and I wanted to retire. Directly my uncle came back to me, put his arm around my shoulder and asked me if I did not want to be religious. I told him that I had always had that desire, that mother had brought me up that way, and really I did not know anything else. Then he wanted to know if I had ever professed religion. I hardly understood what he meant and did not answer him. He changed his question and asked me if I had ever been to the altar for prayer, and I answered him in the negative. Then he earnestly besought me to let him take me up to the altar and join the others in being prayed for. It really embarrassed me and I hardly knew what to say to him. He spoke to me of my mother and said that when she was a little girl she went to the altar and that Christ accepted her and she had been a good Christian all these years. That touched me in a tender spot, for mother always did do what was right; and then I was far away from her and wanted to see her. Oh, if she were there to tell me what to do!

    By and by I yielded to his entreaty and he led forward to the altar. The minister took me by the hand and spoke tenderly to me as I knelt at the altar. I had gone more out of sympathy than conviction, and I did not know what to do after I bowed there. The others were praying aloud and now and then one would rise shoutingly happy and make the old building ring with his glad praise. It was a novel experience to me. I did not know what to pray for, neither did I know what to expect if I did pray. I spent the most of the hour wondering why I was there and what it all meant. No one explained anything to me. Once in awhile some good old brother or sister would pass my way, strike me on the back and tell me to look up and believe and the blessing would come. But that was not encouraging to me. In fact, it sounded like nonsense and the noise was distracting me. Even in my crude way of thinking I had an idea that religion was a sensible thing and that people ought to become religious intelligently and without all that hurrah. I presume that my ideas were the result of the Presbyterian training given to me by old grandfather. By and by my knees grew tired and the skin was nearly rubbed off my elbows. I thought the service never would close, and when it did conclude with the benediction I heaved a sigh of relief. That was my first experience at the mourner's bench.

    As we drove home I did not have much to say, but I listened attentively to the conversation between my uncle and his wife. They were greatly impressed with the meeting, and they spoke first of this one and that one who had "come through" and what a change it would make in the community, as many of them were bad boys. As we were putting up the team my uncle spoke very encouragingly to me; he was delighted with the step I had taken and he pleaded with me not to turn back, but to press on until I found the pearl of great price. He knew my mother would be very happy over the start I had made. Before going to sleep I fell into a train of thought, though I was tired and exhausted. I wondered why I had gone to that altar and what I had gained by it. I felt no special conviction and had received no special impression, but then if my mother had started that way there must be something in it, for she always did what was right. I silently lifted my heart to God in prayer for conviction and guidance. I knew how to pray, for I had come up through prayer, but not the mourner's bench sort. So I determined to continue to attend the meeting and keep on going to the altar until I got religion.

    Early the next morning I was up and in a serious frame of mind. I went with the other hands to the cottonfield and at noon I slipped off in the barn and prayed. But the more I thought of the way those young people were moved in the meeting and with what glad hearts they had shouted their praises to God the more it puzzled and confused me. I could not feel the conviction that they had and my heart did not feel melted and tender. I was callous and unmoved in feeling and my distress on account of sin was nothing like theirs. I did not understand my own state of mind and heart. It troubled me, for by this time I really wanted to have an experience like theirs.

    When evening came I was ready for Church service and was glad to go. It required no urging. Another large crowd was present and the preacher was as earnest as ever. I did not give much heed to the sermon. In fact, I do not recall a word of it. I was anxious for him to conclude and give me a chance to go to the altar. I had gotten it into my head that there was some real virtue in the mourner's bench; and when the time came I was one of the first to prostrate myself before the altar in prayer. Many others did likewise. Two or three good people at intervals knelt by me and spoke encouragingly to me, but they did not help me. Their talks were mere exhortations to earnestness and faith, but there was no explanation of faith, neither was there any light thrown upon my mind and heart. I wrought myself up into tears and cries for help, but the whole situation was dark and I hardly knew why I cried, or what was the trouble with me. Now and then others would arise from the altar in an ecstasy of joy, but there was no joy for me. When the service closed I was discouraged and felt that maybe I was too hardhearted and the good Spirit could do nothing for me.
     
  6. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    58
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    After we went home I tossed on the bed before going to sleep and wondered why God did not do for me what he had done for mother and what he was doing in that meeting for those young people at the altar. I could not understand it. But I resolved to keep on trying, and so dropped off to sleep. The next day I had about the same experience and at night saw no change in my condition. And so for several nights I repeated the same distressing experience. The meeting took on such interest that a day service was adopted along with the night exercises, and we attended that also. And one morning while I bowed at the altar in a very disturbed state of mind Brother Tyson, a good local preacher and the father of Rev. J. F. Tyson, now of the Central Conference, sat down by me and, putting his hand on my shoulder, said to me: "Now I want you to sit up awhile and let's talk this matter over quietly. I am sure that you are in earnest, for you have been coming to this altar night after night for several days. I want to ask you a few simple questions." And the following questions were asked and answered:

    "My son, do you not love God?"

    "I cannot remember when I did not love him."

    "Do you believe on his Son, Jesus Christ?"

    "I have always believed on Christ. My mother taught me that from my earliest recollection."

    "Do you accept him as your Savior?"

    "I certainly do, and have always done so."

    "Can you think of any sin that is between you and the Savior?"

    "No, sir; for I have never committed any bad sins."

    "Do you love everybody?"

    "Well, I love nearly everybody, but I have no ill-will toward any one. An old man did me a wrong not long ago and I acted ugly toward him, but I do not care to injure him."

    "Can you forgive him?"

    "Yes, if he wanted me to."

    "But, down in your heart, can you wish him well?"

    "Yes, sir; I can do that."

    "Well, now let me say to you that if you love God, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior from sin and if you love your fellowmen and intend by God's help to lead a religious life, that's all there is to religion. In fact, that is all I know about it."

    Then he repeated several passages of Scriptures to me proving his assertions. I thought a moment and said to him: "But I do not feel like these young people who have been getting religion night after night. I cannot get happy like them. I do not feel like shouting."

    The good man looked at me and smiled and said: "Ah, that's your trouble. You have been trying to feel like them. Now you are not them; you are yourself. You have your own quiet disposition and you are not turned like them. They are excitable and blustery like they are. They give way to their feelings. That's all right, but feeling is not religion. Religion is faith and life. If you have violent feeling with it, all good and well, but if you have faith and not much feeling, why the feeling will take care of itself. To love God and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, turning away from all sin, and living a godly life, is the substance of true religion."

    That was new to me, yet it had been my state of mind from childhood. For I remembered that away back in my early life, when the old preacher held services in my grandmother's house one day and opened the door of the Church, I went forward and gave him my hand. He was to receive me into full membership at the end of six months' probation, but he let it pass out of his mind and failed to attend to it.

    As I sat there that morning listening to the earnest exhortation of the good man my tears ceased, my distress left me, light broke in upon my mind, my heart grew joyous, and before I knew just what I was doing I was going all around shaking hands with everybody, and my confusion and darkness disappeared and a great burden rolled off my spirit. I felt exactly like I did when I was a little boy around my mother's knee when she told of Jesus and God and Heaven. It made my heart thrill then, and the same old experience returned to me in that old country Church that beautiful September morning down in old North Georgia.

    As we returned home the sun shone brighter, the birds sang sweeter and the autumn-time looked richer than ever before. My heart was light and my spirit buoyant. I had anchored my soul in the haven of rest, and there was not a ripple upon the current of my joy. That night there was no service and after supper I walked out under the great old pine trees and held communion with God. I thought of mother, and home, and Heaven.

    I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life.
     
  7. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    58
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    And one more on the old Southern Methodist way of receiving God...

    David Sullins, “Recollections of an Old Man – Seventy Years in Dixie” Testimony

    I was converted in my twelfth year, in the old log church in the town of Athens, Tn.

    Our place of worship was two miles in the country at Cedar Springs; but occasionally when there were no services at our church, we went to town to preaching. Rev. Frank Fanning was the preacher. I sat with my hands between my knees to keep them warm, and listened to the preacher. There came into my childish heart a feeling unknown before—a strange sense of the nearness and love of Jesus, of whom mother had so often spoken to me. I felt that I loved him. A simple, childlike tenderness filled my heart and I felt that he loved me. It was a most delightful sensation. I think I wept for very joy, but said nothing. It was all so new and strange and sweet that I knew nothing to say. I looked over to the seat where father and mother were seated, and such a flood of love for them swept through me that I could hardly repress the desire to run and hug them. I did actually love everybody and everything. And that sweet feeling stayed with me after the benediction. It stayed with me all about the house and barn, singing in my heart when alone in the woods; and I wanted to pray, and did not want my dog to catch that little rabbit and kill it.

    Do you ask, "What was it?" I never once thought what it was. I was happy and peaceful, and everybody was good, and that was enough. Sometimes I would stay around mother and wish she would tell me to do something, that I might have the pleasure of showing her how quickly and well I could do it. It did not occur to me that I had religion. Indeed, I hardly thought a boy could get religion except at Cedar Springs Camp Meeting. But that sweet, love-everybody feeling staid with me till camp meeting. I was glad when that came. At the first call I went to the mourners' bench, and down in the straw father and mother and brother and sister came, and we prayed together, and I began to laugh and hug them. It was the same old feeling of love and tenderness which I felt on the Sunday six months before. I said: "I've got religion. Hallelujah!" It was true, and I have never had any better, and all I want now is more of it!
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    16,988
    Likes Received:
    1,611
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Salvation is not the work of the flesh....getting someone psychologically malable....then getting them to do something.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,567
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Lol, right, it's God that's "getting someone psychologically malable....then getting them to do something. :)
     
  10. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    1,580
    Likes Received:
    205
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I must ask the question: Why do you think they tried to convince your friend not to become a believer? Can you explain in detail why you believe this?
     
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    58
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    It was almost as though they were giving him a catechism of the church. I feel a simple sinners prayer is enough for salvation. The catechism can come later.
     
  12. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If I may, all these posts look a bit like you advertising for these people you support.

    Salvation is of the Lord completely.

     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Where can I find the word-for-word script for the sinners prayer? It's not in the bible.

     
  14. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    58
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    what I was looking for was something simple......

    8 ... The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. - Romans 10
     
  15. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    1,580
    Likes Received:
    205
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh ok, I understand now. You believe that we should stick closely to a simple declaration of faith in Jesus' resurrection, his Lordship declared publicly, mixed with sincere repentance for a previous way of life.

    I totally understand that point of view and am even mulling it over myself.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's not a sinners prayer.

    Only the elect are saved.

    Just one chapter earlier, Paul had this to say:

    Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

    14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

    19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    47,623
    Likes Received:
    2,566
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Luk_14:28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  18. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    7,964
    Likes Received:
    1,378
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am sure by the end of this thread you will be thoroughly disgusted. This place definitely overcomplicates salvation.
     
  19. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,955
    Likes Received:
    226
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here are three sinners' prayers word-for-word:

    Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

    Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.


    Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

    It's not what you say; otherwise, mutes could not be saved. It's your heart crying out to the Lord for His salvation.




     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A diversion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...