Conditional election

I would agree, we are going way off track here. Again we are talking about Conditional Election / Unconditional l election. I wanted to add Limited & Unlimited Atonement because I feel it links to the discussion, but now we are going far afield. Lets stay on track please.

 

EWF: I agree most completely

The personal sniping and tossing of terms such as "heresy" and the like is unbecoming and beneath men and women of faith and integrity. We should all take a deep breath and have a reasoned and adult discussion concerning the OP, "unconditional election.

Scripture teaches that we will know "false teachers" by their fruit, (Matthew 7:16). The unfortunate thing with this board is that we are not able to experience the lives of our colleagues on this board. So then, if someone claims that Christ did not come in the flesh or he did not rise from the grave, then we can make them "anathema".

Otherwise, lets all get the sand out of our shorts and discuss things reasonably, rationally and seasoned with the compassion and grace that God has so graciously granted us.

 

HP: Sound advice for the fair-minded:thumbs:………. but it is IMPOSSIBLE for some to be fair towards others which whom they disagree. They CANNOT seem to help themselves from personally attacking the other when they have no sound reason or logic to dispute the truth. :smilewinkgrin:

 

HP: You say my doctrine is false. Play the man. Say what you believe. You have state repeatedly that my beliefs are heresy. Is my fate in your opinion hell?

 

DW, it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for me to believe what you set forth on this board concerning issues of unconditional election, the clear implications of double predestination, limited atonement, OSAS etc. as it is not the truth and is not taught in the Word of God. I simply CANNOT believe it.

 

DW. you say my doctrine is false. Play the man. Say what you believe. You have state repeatedly that my beliefs are heresy. Is my fate in your opinion hell?

 

You know, there are a few passages in which modern day bible students want to interpret the word "world" to mean every single individual without exception. But there are passages that obviously show that this isn't the bible definition of that word.

1 John 5:19 - "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."

Obviously "whole world" cannot mean every single individual without exception, if for no other reason than there is an exception made here. The exception is "we are of God."

John 17:9 - "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Now, we can argue over who the "them which thou hast given me" are, but the indisputable fact is there is an exception to the word "world" here that Jesus isn't praying for.

John 15:18 & 19 - "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

Again, you see that world is not used in the scripture as a term meaning universally without exception.

The same could be said for the phrase "all men."

John 11:48 - "If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: adn the Romans shall come and take away our place and nation."

Again, it is obvious that the bible is not using this phrase to be meant universally without exception.

The best bible dictionary is the bible itself. Men try to force a definition on a word, but we must see how the bible uses that word.

 

So what you are advocating is that God is an elitist. I think the Jews in Jesus day had this problem.

 

OK Doc Wally....where did we leave off with Conditional Election? I am a 4 Part Calvinist so I do believe in Augustine's & Paul's tenants & when scripture tells me I am but filthy rags so I disregard the "sounding brass & clanging cymbal's" around me (Hint , Nudge) :smilewinkgrin:. With that said, Is there anything else you'd care to expound on (hopefully without being attacked from all sides)?

If not thanks for your insights into Scripture.

 

I'm not advocating that God is an elitist. Where did you get that? I'm telling you how the bible uses those terms.

Here is something else the bible says: that God's people form an innumerable (to us) multitude out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation.

 

Also

Actually it does The exception is indicated in the passage and even so the "we" are wicked save by the grace of God.

the greek like the english indicates a generality. It doesn't mean Jesus cares less about the rest of the world.

The world in this instance is a system. And it means a system of its entirety.

With the system in mind it does.

Depends on the context.

Sounds like your forcing a definition with out regard to context but with regard to your system of belief.

 

Yes it does. However, you can be multinational and still elitist. Note Hebrews were also multinational when they left egypt.

 

I'm glad you brought up context. The context is key, I totally agree. The context of many uses of the terms many take to be universal without exception do not agree with that view.