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Featured Conditional monergism.. You can forfeit salvation.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by prophecy70, Oct 18, 2020.

  1. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    People often confuse the gift with the condition, they are correct saying no one can separate those in Christ (believers) out of the hand of God.

    But later rejecting Christ, Is how God separates you.


    God himself removes those who do not abide in Christ (Joh 15:5-6, Ro 11:22). As to Romans 8:39, for some reason people hardly ever cite the full verse "... which is in Christ Jesus". And whether we abide in Him is up to us (John 15:5-6).

    Only God can cut you off... if you fail to meet the condition of repenting and believing.


    SO

    Meeting the condition inevitably leads to God giving the gift,
    But the giving and meeting the condition are two separate things.
    Conflating it is like saying if I order food that means I am a chef

    God alone performed initial salvation based on faith and he will perform final salvation based on faith as well. Salvation is not limited to regeneration, it entails regeneration, being presently reconciled to God, but also future deliverance (Ro 13:11, Hebr 9:28).

    In all of this the condition remains the same: Repenting and believing,
     
    #1 prophecy70, Oct 18, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  2. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Historically this has already been explored.
    Persecution and martyrdom may convince some relent, only to comeback later... some don’t get the chance to repent again.
    Additionally I’ve been around enough elderly saints (and I’m getting their myself) to know that their mind may plays tricks on them, sometimes leaving them confused and bewildered.

    God is faithful to his saints. His children will not be abandoned in their weakness and frailty.

    Faith is a gift from God, not a work of man.

    Rob
     
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  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Are we not sealed by the Holy Spirit UNTIL the day of redemption? Eph 4 30 . Eph 1.13-14 .
     
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  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    This negates Everything that happens to a person after they believe . As faith is not a work ,then we are not saved by works . Faith is the prerequisite to Recieve Jesus ..John 1.12 . Faith is not the prerequisite to be glorified. The sealing of the Holy Spirit is the Guarantee every believer has that ensures we WILL be glorified. That is what every saint is predestinated to AFTER we are converted. Rom 8.23
     
  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Let us look closer at John 15. First, the verse within its surrounding paragraph:

    1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every [branch] that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither [can] you unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and [so] prove to be My disciples. 9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and [that] your joy may be made full. [John 15:1-11 NASB]​

    Some observations on the text itself:
    • The key to “abiding” is to obey Jesus’ commandments, so it is critical to understand what Jesus commanded.
    • As an analogy, I know of no branch that makes the decision not to “abide” in the vine to which it is attached. That is not how branches and vines work in the real world. The function of an analogy is to use something that people understand to convey a spiritual truth. As people understand branches, the things that cause them to need to be removed are disease and damage - both from external sources - or abnormal growth - from an innate internal defect. Healthy branches do not just suddenly “choose” to become diseased, damaged or deformed.

    The very NEXT paragraph in John 15 is a clarification of Jesus’ command to His “branches” ... the command that they must obey to “abide”:


    12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 "This I command you, that you love one another. [John 15:12-17 NASB]​

    I have to admit that I find it difficult to imagine a “branch” that hates the other branches in a vine remaining in the vine. I find the concept of a Christian that hates the other Christians equally bizarre. However, to be a Child of God that has no love for the other Children of God (which other verses tell us means that they cannot love Christ and have never met Him) is something far deeper and more fundamental than any unrepented act of sin committed by an individual. This is like the abnormal growth in a real world vine that points to something fundamentally wrong at a deep, internal level. I would be inclined to view this as a tare sown among the wheat that looked similar when young, but matured to reveal its true nature.
     
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  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
    Romans 8:28-39.
    Agreed again.
    If you mean that by trials and tribulations they are revealed for what they really are..."wheat" versus "tares" ( Matthew 13 ), then I agree.
    Respectfully, I disagree.

    I see that genuine repentance and belief come from the heart...
    A heart that has been changed by God.

    False forms of this are present in "tares", and they will not possess the real thing.
    Why?
    Because their hearts have never actually been changed, and they are not recipients of the new birth.
    They only look like believers "from the outside".

    But instead of hating this world and its ways, they still love it and they eventually go back to it in their affections ( if they ever really left it ).
    Instead of loving God and His ways, they hate Him and those ways.
    They go back to their "wallowing in the mire" ( 2 Peter 2:22 ), though they try to hide it.

    To me, that is what religious people do...
    They place their "j*s*s" like a coat around their shoulders when it's time to "make a good show", and then conveniently remove that "coat" when no one is looking.
    But God sees it, because He sees everyone's thoughts and intentions ( Jeremiah 17:10, Acts of the Apostles 1:24, Revelation 2:23, 1 Kings 8:39, Jeremiah 11:20, 1 Samuel 16:7 ).

    Therefore, the "condition" of repentance and belief are, to my understanding of the Scriptures, completely dependent upon God and His work.
    They are "evidential" in nature, even though to many, they seem "conditional" when one reads the Scriptures.
     
    #6 Dave G, Oct 18, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I see that as God relying on men to do something, and then God bases His decision to save someone on that person's action.
    In other words, it's not "monergism" ( one-working ), but is instead, "synergism" ( both-working ) in harmony.

    To put it plainly...
    works, not grace ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ).
    I 'm not sure where you're coming from on this one.

    To me, it sounds like other arguments I've seen, where someone objects to the gift of eternal life actually being a gift...
    And to further emphasize their point, they maintain that "receiving the gift is part of the gift giving process."

    There is a vast difference between someone giving a gift, and "the hand that reaches out to accept it."
    A gift is something that no one knows they have unless and until they are made aware of it.
    A reward is something that no one can get, unless or until they meet the conditions to receive it.

    That is how I see eternal life as being...
    A gift, not a reward.
    No strings attached, and no conditions imposed...

    Only necessary evidences that have to be present and have to occur, if one is an actual recipient of the gift.
     
    #7 Dave G, Oct 18, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I disagree.

    I don't see faith as being the basis for any of it.
    Rather it is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of having been given the gift.

    I agree with the last sentence.
    Again, if it's all of grace and none of works, which I firmly believe the Scriptures to declare, then nothing is "conditional".
    Everything necessary for faith and godliness was provided for us, as believers, in one way, shape or form ( 2 Peter 1:3 ).

    To God alone be the glory, for the great things HE has done.:Notworthy
     
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  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Only if one never really understood the gospel, 2 Corinthians 4:3.
     
  10. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Faith is a condition, not a meritorious work, (no one believes that nonsense).
    Agree The holy spirt is a guarantee to every believer, if you remain believer.

    This is why "believers" are predestinated.

    Faith is what humans do.
    (Acts 16:31)
     
  11. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Works are "works of the law", not a conditional requisite.

    No one believes faith is a meritorious work.
     
  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I disagree.

    To me, there's only two ways out of God's wrath...
    Through keeping the Law perfectly ( which no one besides His Son ever did ) and election.
    I see from the Scriptures that only those whom God foreknew, predestinated, called, justified and glorified will ever have true faith;
    The rest do not and will not ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

    Therefore, the "condition" is not faith, but election.

    Faith, being a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and which is the evidence of His work in us as His children ( Hebrews 11:1 ) cannot be used to "meet the requirement"...
    It's all of God and none of us.
    Not in the least, from where I'm standing.
    See my above.

    If one teaches that a person's faith can be used, like a spiritual "crowbar", to gain God's favor...
    then to me, they are not understanding all that the Lord has given to His children through His Son.

    Faith is not the condition...
    God's purposes according to election is where it all starts;
    From the foundation of the world.

    Please see Ephesians 1:4-14 and Ephesians 2:1-10.
    Aside from God's choice of the believer "in Christ" from before the foundation of the world;
    and the believer being made His workmanship, created "in Christ Jesus", I see that none of us would exercise faith, as none of us would have it.:(
     
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  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Big error there. The "ye are saved" in Ephesians 2:8 is "the gift," not the "through faith," in that text.
     
  14. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 2:8
    [KJV] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    [MGT] τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον

    Saved = σεσῳσμένοι = Verb - Perfect Passive Participle - Nominative Plural Masculine
    Gift = δῶρον = Noun - Nominative Singular Neuter

    "saved" cannot be the "gift" or the gender would match.
     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Three words are Nominative, the subject, "ye are saved," "that" and "gift." And "of faith" is Feminine. The "that" and "gift" are both Neuter. So the "of faith" is excluded by the "that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ."
     
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Unless the whole thing is the "gift" ... the masculine "saved" and the feminine "grace" and "faith", in which case the correct form for "gift" would be neuter.

    The whole shebang is a gift from God ... hence "not of yourselves".
     
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What are the Nominative words in the Greek are the subject of the that sentence, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ."
     
  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    If you make faith something we do then that's not faith ,that's works .
    Please show me any verse which says the sealing of the Holy spirit has a condition upon it ? No its the opposite . It says that the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE . Read ephesians 4.30 / Ephesians 1.5 . eph 1 .13-14 you will see that the Holy Spitit seals UNTIL GLORIFICATION. Your adding to the text .
     
  19. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Believers are predestined to glorification because they are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.God is not impressed by our virtue signalling and piety . He died for sinners .
     
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Salvation by election ,instead of faith ? Before the Fall , before anyone sinned , before Jesus comes, before the cross ,before the resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit? :(
    Its no wonder Calvinism makes the legalists and cults look like they have a point .Calvinism makes Mormonism look plausible.
     
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