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Conscription?

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Van, Sep 23, 2022.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    News today told of mile long lines of Russian men seeking to escape being turned into cannon fodder by the thugs of autocracy.

    The question is do you believe in the right to life, or do others have the right to terminate you for what they see as the greater good.

    Does the right to "raise an Army" bestow the right of conscription, or only the right to raise an Army by any and all constitutional means, which excludes involuntary servitude?
     
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  2. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    We have conscripted soldiers in every major war we ever fought. We sure do not have any high moral ground to condemn Russia.
     
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The fact the USA has used conscription after constitutionally banning it does not condemn Russia! :)
     
  4. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Read Romans 13.
    Government has the power to enforce conscription. If that conscription goes against God's word (and I believe it does) you have the conscientious right to objection. That objection, however, may result in your own death by that government.

    Study the history of the Mennonites and see their fleeing Ukraine due to forced conscription by the Tzar in the late 1800s. Rather than fight, they fled.

    What is happening in Russia is no different. There is nothing new under the sun.
     
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  6. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    When did the U.S. ban conscription?
    It's the same as the draft. And all males age 18 are required to register for it. We are presently committed to avoiding it's use, but that could change.
     
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  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    They haven't. However, near the end of WWI the US created a conscientious objector law that allows people to claim exemption. This law came into effect when 4 Hutterite (an offshoot of Mennonite) men were conscripted. The men took the train to the camp, but refused to wear army uniform or carry a gun. They said they could cook at the camp or other non-violent chores. The commander would not have it and declared they were openly defiant (it didn't help that these men spoke low German and had a German accent). He sent them to Alcatraz prison. After months in Alcatraz the 4 men were transported to Leavenworth prison where, in the middle of winter, they were stripped naked and left to stand outside in the cold. In Leavenworth they were routinely beaten and mistreated until 2 of the men died. By this time the media had heard of them and were reporting. Upon these 2 men dying, the US government dressed them in full military clothing and sent their bodies back to the families in coffins. Every Hutterite community in the US left for Canada except one.
    The news of these men's deaths lead to the conscientious objector laws we have today.

    Joseph, Michael, and David Hofer and Jacob Wipf (Hutterite Martyrs of 1918) - Bearing Witness
     
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  8. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Funny, I have friends in Georgia (the nation) who are reporting the large influx of people fleeing Putin's Russia.

    I wonder how long it will take before the pro-Russian crowd on the BB realize they've been duped.
     
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  10. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    I know..
    That was my point.
    The rest of it, we already know about.
    A conscientious-objector law is no challenge to the practice of conscription on its face.
    The point is, the Constitution (not a conscientious-objector qualifier) does not forbid conscription.

    If it did:
    Then a conscientious-objector qualifier would be unnecessary as it demonstrates that conscription is not unconstitutional.

    Much like the fact that the Constitution forbids depriving one of life and limb without due process forces you to conclude that it doesn't forbid the death penalty on its face.
     
  11. Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin

    Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin Well-Known Member
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    I think conscription can be Biblically refused in many cases.

    Eventually I expect the Dems will want to try and have my daughter sign up for the draft. I will never do that and if they want to change that they can come out to my farm in the boonies.

    Conscription for pretty much every war after 2012 can be resisted on the basis that the military wants to force Christians to call trannies their special pronouns, and have them shower with you. That was the main reason I didn't join after talking at length with my recruiter. There's also the unbiblical position of women in front line combat.

    The military isn't the military anymore, it's an orgy of a bunch of pink and purple haired confused people.
     
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The Amendment to the Constitution outlawing "involuntary servitude" bans conscription. But rather than accepting the limitation, the SCOTUS rules that since the Constitution gives government the responsibility and right to "raise an Army" that means it can raise the Army without adherence to the 13th Amendment. Like Dred Scot And Roe, this is a bogus ruling that in God's good time will be overturned.
     
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  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    So, you believe the constitution does prohibit conscription, but the SCOTUS just hasn’t figured it out yet?

    Not your best argument.

    peace to you
     
  14. Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin

    Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin Well-Known Member
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    Well, in his defense, it took SCOTUS several decades to figure out that murder in the womb isn't something enshrined in the Constitution.
     
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, that is a terrible argument, one you invented and attributed to me.

    Anyone who claims conscription is not involuntary servitude knows they are dissembling. Just as the Roe deciders found a fictional basis for Roe, the deciders found a fictional basis for violating the clear intent of the 13th Amendment.
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Help me out, wasn’t the intention of the 13th amendment to abolish slavery?

    If the citizens of the USA wanted the 13th amendment to apply to military service, it would have been explicitly stated in the amendment.

    Peace to you
     
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  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    As your post suggests involuntary servitude does not preclude conscription, there is nothing I can say...
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Imagine Russian boys ill trained and armed with WWII weapons being mowed down in Ukraine, as they encounter the "smart" weapons being utilized by Ukraine?

    If we believe in "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" as inalienable rights, we could not justify conscription either in Russia or in the USA. If we believe government power comes from the "consent" of the governed, we could not justify conscription.
     
  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Brother, the US armed forces have been an all volunteer force for over 45 years. Please don’t compare the US to what Putin is doing.

    peace to you
     
  20. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    The United States had the draft in Vietnam and many, many Americans avoided it, including American president bell clint0n. Americans would no longer accept the draft so that's the real reason it was temporary done away with. We still register for it today. We simply didn't need it against primitive foes. We still fight wars and loose them just like Vietnam. But they are to make money for the ruling class. No other reason. Today we are using the Ukrainians as our draft. Cannon fodder to be used against Russia. To bleed them. The divy up Ukraine when we are through with her. All of Ukraines public state owned property will be transfered to "the private sector", meaning some western billionaires.

     
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