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Conservative Episcopalians Take a "Stand"

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Dale McNamee, Oct 7, 2003.

  1. Dale McNamee

    Dale McNamee New Member

    Jun 23, 2003
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    Hello Everyone!

    Here's a story from the Washington Times regarding the Dallas meeting of conservative Episcopal clergy and laity that will be taking place from Oct.7-9.


    Also,here's a link from the American Anglican Council website regarding the proposals to be voted on.


    I'm originally from Pittsburgh,Pa. and have been following what's been going on there. Bishop Robert Duncan was very courageous in calling a special diocesan convention to address the crisis and I agree with what he's done.

    Here's his opening address: http://www.americananglican.org/News/News.cfm?ID=759&c=21

    And here are the resolutions from the Pittsburgh convention: http://www.americananglican.org/News/News.cfm?ID=758&c=21

    There was a similar diocesan convention held in
    Fort Worth,Texas and here's Bishop Iker's address: http://www.americananglican.org/News/News.cfm?ID=756&c=21

    And the resolutions passed: http://www.americananglican.org/News/News.cfm?ID=757&c=21

    In an earlier thread,I had posted an article regarding the Muslims pulling out of an interfaith dialog meeting due to ECUSA's elevating of Gene Robinson to bishop.

    Well,The Right Reverend Dr Mouneer Anis, Bishop of the Episcopal Church in Egypt with North Africa and the Horn of Africa wrote down his comments on what happened in this report:

    ECUSA's actions have really re-inforced the idea that Christianity is a heretical and immoral religion in the eyes of many Muslims and has made life tougher for Anglicans in the Middle East. :( [​IMG]

    I guess that ECUSA forgot about that! :mad:

    And finally, Pastor Steve Randall and those from St.Timothy Episcopal in Catonsville,Md. who left the Episcopal diocese have given their newly formed church a name: Emmaus Anglican Church. They have a web page up,please go and visit it:
    http://www.emmausanglicanchurch.org/ [​IMG]

    These are historic times!

    In Christ,

  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Active Member

    Aug 27, 2002
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    Non Baptist Christian
    I hope these reformers are successful in saving their church. Hopefully they won't be exterminated by those that oppose them.

    IN Christ,

  3. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy New Member

    Sep 1, 2002
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    I'm praying for a conservative resurgence in the Anglican Church. I too hope these reformers are successful. [​IMG]
  4. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Jan 11, 2001
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    The Lord graced me with airline tickets and monies to attend this glorious conference! 2,700 bishops, priests, deacons, laity, opened this grand conference with "Stand Up for Jesus!" and indeed they did! This was the most glorious experience of my life! The Wednesday night eucharist saw a procession of 900 priests (and praise God I was able to walk in that procession!) and 40+ bishops, in Trinity Hall of the Anatole Hotel, with a gathering of 4,000+!!!

    The following is a letter from a Roman Catholic priest...

    Back to the Future: The Rebirth of Optimism.

    by Fr Joseph F. Wilson

    We live in hope, we Christians; the virtue of Hope is part of our
    marching orders. But Hope is distinct from optimism, and it often seems
    nowadays that optimism is hard to come by in the Church. My own Roman
    Catholic Church as well as the Episcopal Church in America are beset
    with problems, scandals and signs of institutional decline all too
    familiar to anyone following the news.

    But during this past week, something happened that hearkened back to an
    earlier day, both hopeful and optimistic, a day thirty-six years ago,
    which most people seem to have forgotten. In 1966, in an ancient church
    in Rome, Saint Paul's Outside-The-Walls, the Pope of the Catholic
    Church met the Archbishop of Canterbury, and they participated in a
    prayer service. At its conclusion, just as they were to part, Pope Paul
    VI stopped, hesitated, then took off his own Episcopal ring and placed
    it on the finger of Michael Ramsey, the primate of All England and head
    of the Anglican Communion.

    It was a heady day, indeed a day of great optimism and deep hope which
    seemed to promise further progress between two great churches towards
    the realization of the Lord's prayer "that they may be one."

    The dismal aftermath of that joyful encounter is a matter of recent
    history. The Anglican-Roman Catholic International Consultation (ARCIC)
    began, with great fanfare. Yet over the decades, the two churches,
    rather than converging, have diverged sharply as Anglicanism made room
    for remarriage in Church after divorce, the ordination of women to the
    diaconate, then to the priesthood, then to the episcopate. The list of
    controverted moral issues between the two churches has grown, with the
    issue of the acceptance of homosexuality and the blessing of same-sex
    unions the latest point of contention. The hope of that day in Saint
    Paul's Outside-the-Walls has seemed much more distant than just thirty
    six years - until this week.

    What happened during this past week was that over two thousand faithful
    Episcopalians, conservative believers gathering to witness to their
    Faith and plan for the future in the face of the continuing apostasy of
    their denomination, were brought to their feet in a demonstration of
    joyous, thunderous applause in response to a letter of support from
    Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, the chief aide to the Vicar of Christ, the
    Holy Father, Pope John Paul.

    The letter is a significant gesture, for the Faithful of both churches,
    for a number of reasons.

    For one, as has been noted already, the headquarters of the Episcopal
    Church at 815 Second Avenue in New York City was bypassed, as Cardinal
    Ratzinger chose to communicate directly with the Plano assembly. This
    is unusual, doubly so as Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold of the
    Episcopal Church is the Anglican co-chair of the official dialogue
    between Anglicanism and the Roman Church.

    For another, the letter is quite clear that Cardinal Ratzinger is
    writing "on behalf of Pope John Paul II." This is not merely a private

    But, perhaps most significantly of all, it is a further sign of
    something which has been increasingly evident in the past few years:
    ecumenical dialogue is entering a more realistic phase. As the two
    churches diverged more and more, the "official dialogue" proceeded and
    issued optimistic statements; if the official communiquÈs were to be
    believed, it seemed as though the two churches were growing steadily
    closer as doctrinal and moral differences between them multiplied.
    Successive Archbishops of Canterbury and Presiding Bishops of the USA
    were ceremonially received by the Pope in Rome, all the while the
    official Anglican establishment in Britain and North America was
    getting loonier and loonier.

    Meanwhile, within the Episcopal Church of the USA and the Church of
    England, faithful traditionalist Anglicans were struggling to preserve
    their heritage, and continuing Anglicans, having left the official
    Anglican Communion to form their own bodies, were persevering against
    immense odds. With all of these, the Holy See certainly had more in
    common than with the Anglican Communion establishment with which it was

    But things have slowly been changing in the past few years. Bishops of
    continuing Anglican churches have been cordially received at Rome, and
    conversations quietly begun; and when those conversations encountered
    obstacles among some in the Roman Curia, those obstacles were overcome.
    Forward in Faith/UK, the traditionalist group in Britain, has been
    engaged in serious, cordial conversations with Rome. And Rome itself
    has said that it will no longer feel obligated to channel all of its
    Anglican conversations through the official channels of the Anglican

    And now there is reason to hope that we return to the Lord Jesus, Who
    is, after all, the Point of it all. We return to the Lord Jesus, Who
    prayed that we might be One. We return to the Lord Jesus and to His
    Gospel, remembering that the one thing needful is that we be faithful
    to Him. We live in a day when it is not hard at all to find bishops who
    will pretend that 'Unity" is the Most Important Thing, rather than the
    Way, the Truth, the Life who should unify us; that Dialogue is more
    important than witnessing to Truth. At Plano, they kicked off the
    festivities with "Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus." It's no accident; that
    great old war horse has been out of fashion for years. Standing Up for
    Jesus is coming back into style.

    Plano was an interesting meeting in many ways; perhaps the most
    interesting aspect of it was the quite evident feeling of participants
    that the Presiding Bishop and his minions were now quite beside the
    point. "Jesus Christ is Lord," was a common exclamation, and also
    common in the reports from Plano were expressions of joy and calm.
    Bishop Ackerman spoke powerfully when he said that they need have no
    fear, that they already knew Who had written the last chapter and where
    the victory would lie. Meanwhile, as far as 815 Second Avenue was
    concerned, one got the distinct impression that the assembly was
    saying, "Oh, rubbish! You have no power here. Now, begone! Before
    someone drops a house on YOU!!"

    Yes, it seems that, after so long, there's not just a future to hope
    in, but to be optimistic about as well. Great things are about to
    happen, great things done by the Lord. Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus!

    Father Wilson is a Roman Catholic Priest of the Diocese of Brooklyn,
    ordained in 1986. He is presently stationed at St Luke's Church in
    Whitestone, Queens, where he is curate, director of education of the
    school, and a keen observer of Anglican affairs.
  5. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Jan 11, 2001
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    News Analysis

    By David W. Virtue

    DALLAS--Frank Griswold, The Episcopal Church's Presiding Bishop has
    taken four blows to the head recently, and a fifth is about to hit him
    when he goes to Lambeth next week.

    The only question is, will it be a TKO for the Presiding Bishop and for
    his notion of pluriform truth?

    Griswold's mission of "global reconciliation" will be declared a
    fiction, and no one will venture forth to join him with Sufi Rumi in
    that plain beyond good and evil. There is also no deeper place for him
    to run to or hide. Absolute truth will have finally caught up with the
    bishop, while pluriform truth will finally be extinguished in the maze
    of his own mystic pagan mind.

    Griswold's Affirming Catholicism has finally been exposed as a thin
    theological prophylactic, providing no safety against the heavy
    doctrinal hand of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger nor the weighty council of
    biblically orthodox Anglican bishops and theologians.

    The blows he has received to date rank as the most publicly humiliating
    an ecclesiastical leader has ever faced in the 200-year history of the
    Episcopal Church.

    Consider the following:

    Last week the Presiding Bishop was told in raw, blunt terms that he was
    not welcome at a Roman Catholic parish in St. Augustine, Florida by the
    Roman Catholic Bishop of that Diocese, one Victor Galeone.

    The Roman Catholic prelate told Griswold he would not be allowed to co-
    consecrate at Bishop Samuel Howard's consecration in Florida because of
    his views on homosexuality, and his vote to confirm an openly
    practicing homosexual to the episcopacy in New Hampshire. The local
    Catholic diocese rescinded the invitation after Frank Griswold defended
    homosexual behavior, arguing that the Bible does not condemn same-sex

    It was an unprecedented slap in the face at the Episcopal Church leader
    who has also been the ecumenical officer for Anglican-Catholic

    Griswold was publicly humiliated.

    The second public slap came from Pope John Paul who sent a letter of
    support to the gathering of some 2,700 biblically orthodox
    Episcopalians in Dallas this week.

    The letter came from the Catholic Church's leading exponent of
    doctrinal orthodoxy Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger over the signature of
    Pope John Paul.

    The letter affirmed "unity in truth", a clear slap at Griswold's notion
    of "pluriform truths" with the note bypassing denominational protocols
    that would have demanded they go through the Presiding Bishop's office
    before being delivered to the meeting in Dallas. It never happened.

    The Vatican stomped all over ARCIC - the official Roman Catholic
    Anglican talks, declaring them, for all intents and purposes dead after
    30 years.

    The third blow came when Griswold was told that a delegation from the
    national church was not welcome at the AAC gathering to observe the
    occasion because, as Canon David Anderson put it, "those who are
    gathering for the meeting feel a sense of betrayal and abandonment by
    the leadership of the Episcopal Church and feel that those who voted to
    confirm Gene Robinson's election as the church's first openly gay
    bishop have shattered and shipwrecked the church."

    He also said there was no category for observers and that all must
    register as participants, signing the document, "A Place to Stand",
    which of course Griswold could not, in all conscience, sign. Body blow
    number three.

    But Griswold took yet another blow, his fourth, this time from orthodox
    ECUSA bishop, Stephen Jecko of Florida, who read a letter saying that
    Griswold was tantamount to a wolf in sheep's clothing. He wrote, "You
    have consistently taken sides and consequently relinquished the
    reconciling role of the Office of Presiding Bishop. Your public
    support, your vote, and your intention to consecrate V. Gene Robinson
    is an abuse of the Office of Presiding Bishop and places you clearly at
    odds with a majority of the Anglican Communion and the Diocese of

    Bishop Jecko also made it clear that Griswold was not welcome to come
    and consecrate the new bishop of his diocese and the PB should go pound

    And next week Griswold will get his fifth and final blow that will
    surely TKO him, leaving him glassy-eyed looking up from the floor,
    breathing heavily.

    The Archbishop of Canterbury and a majority of his fellow primates will
    tell the American leader at Lambeth that his personal vote to elect the
    openly non-celibate homosexual Vicki Gene Robinson and his total
    support of sodomy as theologically and morally acceptable behavior is
    way out of theological bounds and if he doesn't repent (and he won't)
    then he and ECUSA are out of the Anglican Communion.

    The Primates know, from recent disclosure of his letters to Charles
    Bennison, that Frank can't be trusted to keep his word.

    IF and when Griswold finally recovers, he could go to his field of
    dreams to lick his pluriform wounds, following which he will return to
    the US and seek solace in the arms of his fellow revisionist bishops
    who will undoubtedly tell him, "to Hell with the Anglican Communion,
    you are home now among friends."

    Perhaps, but the public humiliation maybe more than Griswold can bear
    and he might just do the honorable thing and resign his office.

    It would of course, be the ONLY honorable thing he has ever done since
    he took office in 1999, but it would, at least, be the right thing to
    do. The question is, is his brain unscrambled enough to know to do the
    right thing, or has theological Alzheimer's set in so that he no longer
    knows right from wrong. We shall soon know.
  6. faithcontender

    faithcontender New Member

    May 26, 2003
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    It's much better for the Anglicans to renounce their church and establish a bible believing churches after the New Testament pattern whose Lordship is Christ.
  7. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter New Member

    Jul 27, 2003
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    That's true. The world could use a lot more Anabaptist congregations.
  8. faithcontender

    faithcontender New Member

    May 26, 2003
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    Amen for that! Let's have the spirit of anabaptists in the past when instead of saving the apostate church they rather courageusly proceeded to establish bible believing churches which are pattern after the New Testament.
  9. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Jan 11, 2001
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    An Alarm Sounds in London: Will It Matter?

    By Albert Mohler

    Friday, October 17, 2003

    The emergency meeting of the primates of the Anglican Communion ended
    yesterday with the 37 national leaders of the Anglican churches still
    trying to prevent a schism in their ranks. They released a unanimous
    statement warning that their communion would be torn asunder by action
    of the Episcopal Church (USA)to consecrate the first openly homosexual
    bishop of the church. The release of the statement came after two days
    of meetings in London under the glare of press speculation and public
    attention. The stakes could not be higher.

    Conservatives will be disappointed that the group did not take direct
    action to expel the Episcopal Church (USA) from the Anglican Communion.
    Experienced observers of the work and ways of the Anglicans will not be
    surprised. Established as a "middle way" between Catholicism and
    Protestantism, the Church of England and its daughter churches around
    the world have always been known for moderate action and considerable
    diversity. The expulsion of the Episcopal Church would have been
    unprecedented, but the primates' decision not to expel the church will
    likely lead to the very schism the leaders wanted to avoid.

    The statement first established that the reason for the unusual
    convocation was "recent events in the diocese of New Westminster,
    Canada, and the Episcopal Church (USA)." The Canadian and American
    churches have acted unilaterally in multiple ways to endorse
    homosexuality. The Canadian diocese had adopted a Rite of Blessing for
    those in committed same sex relationships. The Episcopal Church (USA)
    elected Canon Gene Robinson, a divorced man living in a homosexual
    partnership, as Bishop of New Hampshire. These decisions were simply
    too much for orthodox Anglicans to take.

    As the primates headed for London, conservatives seemed confident that
    they had gathered a majority ready to expel the American church and
    establish a new Anglican body within North America. Lead by African
    leaders such as Nigerian Archbishop Peter Akinola, the primates knew in
    advance that schism was a very real possibility.

    According to the statement, the actions of the Canadian and American
    churches "threaten the unity of our own Communion as well as our
    relationships with other parts of Christ's Church, our mission and
    witness, and our relations with other faiths, in world already confused
    in areas of sexuality, morality, and theology, and polarized Christian

    The statement also made reference to the 1998 Lambeth Conference, at
    which the primates had affirmed that homosexuality is incompatible with
    Scripture. In true Anglican fashion, the primates called upon Dr. Rowan
    Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, to establish a study commission
    charged to bring a report back to the group within twelve months.

    The primates stated that the actions in New Westminster and the United
    States "do not express the mind of our Communion as a whole, and these
    decisions jeopardize our sacramental fellowship with each other." The
    statement acknowledged that those who dissent from the pro-homosexual
    actions of the Canadian and American bodies may be forced by conscience
    to sever all ties with the offending churches. Furthermore, the
    statement left wide open the question of whether the Anglican Communion
    will take any specific position on the sinfulness of homosexuality for
    their worldwide body of churches.

    Given the stature of the American church, the decision by the Episcopal
    Church (USA) was what actually prompted this unusual gathering. "In
    most of our provinces," said the primates, "the election on Canon Gene
    Robinson would not have been possible since his chosen lifestyle would
    give rise to a canonical impediment to his consecration as a bishop."
    Conservatives will be encouraged to see that the thirty seven
    participating primates unanimously gave consent to a statement that
    described Cannon Robinson's lifestyle as chosen rather than given.

    At the same time, evangelical Anglicans will be distressed to read the
    evasive language in the statement about biblical authority According to
    the statement, all the primates hold to a high view of Scripture.
    "Whilst we acknowledge a legitimate diversity of interpretation that
    arises in the Church, this diversity does not mean that some of us take
    the authority of Scripture more lightly then others." The statement
    continued: "Nevertheless, each province needs to be aware of the
    possible effects of its interpretation of Scripture on the life of
    other provinces in the Communion. We commit ourselves afresh to mutual
    respect while seeking from the Lord a correct discernment of how God's
    Word speaks to us in our contemporary world."

    The problem with this statement should be obvious to any accustomed to
    reading the disingenuous evasions of official bureaucratic language. It
    is simply not true that the affirmation biblical authority unites these
    primates. This argument is patent nonsense and theological evasion.
    These words sound almost exactly like the language of the statement
    made this past summer by Bishop Frank Griswold, the presiding Bishop of
    the Episcopal Church (USA), in his statement defending the election of
    the homosexual bishop.

    Theological liberals seek to take cover under the claim that what
    separates liberal and conservatives is not our commitment to the
    authority of Scripture, but rather mere matters of interpretation. This
    is intellectually dishonest. Those pushing for acceptance of
    homosexuality are pushing against the clear and unambiguous teaching of

    The formation of yet another study commission is another bad sign. The
    issue of homosexuality in the Scripture requires no extensive study
    commission. The Scripture is consistently and explicitly clear in its
    denunciation of homosexuality in every form. There is no room for
    evasion and there is no problem of confusion in the text. Those who
    argue for the normalization of homosexuality do so in direct
    contradiction to the Holy Scripture. Under these circumstances, a study
    commission is more like a negotiated surrender of biblical authority
    and theological integrity.

    The Church of England and its daughter churches of the Anglican
    Communion are established by constitution. At the center of their
    constitutional life is the confessional statement known as the "Thirty-
    Nine Articles." Article XX of the confession reads: "It is not lawful
    for the church to ordain any thing that is contrary to God's Word
    written, neither may it so expound one place of Scripture, that it be
    repugnant to another." This is a classic statement of the evangelical
    Scripture principle. It states emphatically that the church is not free
    to ordain or approve anything contrary to God's Word. Thus, the
    scriptural condemnation of homosexuality is adequate and non-negotiable
    to establish that the church cannot normalize or accept, much less
    celebrate, homosexuality in any form. In addition, this article of the
    confession also requires a method of interpretation that does not place
    one scriptural text over against another. This is the usual technique
    of those to seek to subvert the Word of God from within the church.

    Clear lines of division mark the debate over this issue. An exchange
    posted on the website for BBC News featured Dr. Philip Giddings,
    convener of Anglican Mainstream insisting that the church cannot be
    driven to revise its understanding of homosexuality by the pressure of
    modern political correctness. "We respond to the argument that we have
    got to 'move with the times' by saying that as Christian disciples we
    are called to obey the teaching of Scripture whether we like it or not.
    People may wish it said something different, but we are not at liberty
    to pick and chose the bits that fit with our current culture of our
    personal desires."

    Responding to Giddings, Reverend Gareth Williams, Vice Pincipal of St.
    Michael's Theological College in Llandaff, argued: "As regards the
    Bible, the problem I have is that many people who take the view that
    the Bible is against homosexuality are approaching a rich and complex
    text rather too simplistically. Two thousand years on we know so much
    more about what makes us human. Reading the Bible with the naivety that
    pretends to know nothing of what modern human psychology tells us about
    the givenness of our sexuality only perpetuates injustices towards
    lesbian and gay people. We know that sexuality is hard-wired into our
    genes, so what Scripture can then help us with is how we can best
    handle our given sexuality in a way that best honors human integrity,
    honesty and faithfulness." Williams is taking the classic liberal
    revisionist line by arguing that the Scripture has to be corrected by
    modern psychology. Furthermore he dishonestly asserts that we "know"
    that sexual orientation is genetically based, when we actually know no
    such thing at all.

    The stage is now set for a division in the church--and the fuse will be
    lit if the American church goes ahead with its plans to consecrate Gene
    Robinson on November 2nd. This action, which most observers still
    expect to go forward, will put orthodox Anglicans around the world on
    notice that the unity of their Communion has effectively been destroyed
    by this unbiblical action.

    As expected, several Anglican leaders from Africa were among the
    champions of orthodoxy at the London meeting. In response to the action
    of the Episcopal Church, the church of Nigeria had declared: "We
    totally rejected and renounced this obnoxious attitude and behaviour.
    It is devilish and satanic. It comes directly from the pit of hell. It
    is an idea sponsored by Satan himself and being executed by his
    followers and adherents who have infiltrated the church. The blood and
    power of Jesus Christ of Nazareth will flush them out with disgrace and
    great pains." Any doubt where this church stands?

    That is the quality of conviction that this crisis demands. The
    statement released in London is far too equivocal and temporizing. No
    doubt, the Anglican Communion will undergo great pains as it deals with
    this crisis. The clock is ticking as this church runs out of time to
    recover biblical truth.

    Albert Mohler is Author, Speaker, President of the Southern Baptist
    Theological Seminary
  10. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

    Jan 11, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Isn't it nice how gushy feely nice we are about those "Protestant" Anglicans. Hate to tell you this Bob, but they are closer to Catholic than you think.


    Of course protestants pay little attention to this aspect of Anglicanism as long as they have a common enemy called Catholicism.

    I could bring up the Lord's Supper also. Maybe next time.