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Conservative Teaching @ a Liberal Seminary

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Rhetorician, May 1, 2009.

  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I think his point is that Southern was not conservative.
     
  2. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    That would confuse me more because Southern is, IMO, the most conservative of the six.
     
  3. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Michael Response

    Michael,

    I am not now, nor ever have I been a member of the SBL, too liberal for me!:laugh:

    I hope both of us can commit our lives to relieving "suffering!" And I hope that the cause is the relief of the "ultimate suffering" of seeing men and women, boys and girls going to a real place called Hell for eternity.

    I am also involved, whenever possible, with the relief of suffering of the poor in their plight. But when it via "Social Ethics" or "social justice" or "aid programs" comes into conflict with "the ultimate suffering," I have to give the latter first place.

    "That is all!"
     
    #23 Rhetorician, May 7, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2009
  4. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    I must be having a bad day because I seem to be getting confused often. I am not sure what you mean by this post. The Society of Biblical Literature is kind of a standard and I was curious if you were involved. There is a great myth that states liberals don't believe in hell. This is false, I and several of my friends do in fact believe in Hell. I believe it is a separation from God. The idea that social issues get in the way of "ultimate suffering" seems a bit of a stretch. Most of the social aid and justice issues are to open doors enabling people to hear about Christ. It does no good when someone is hurting, hungry, etc and we speak how Christ meets all needs and how we'll pray for you. The ideals with social ethics, justice, etc is to meet needs and open doors to conversations about Jesus. Anyway, I don't have problems with conservatives, I used to be one. I also do not have any issues with SBL. I hope the best of your endeavors, but I do not know how well you will like the atmosphere your stepping into.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    It is now, but it was not when Mohler was elected president. It was at that time solidly in teh hands of the moderates (who were actually liberals).
     
  6. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    Thank you! I see now. Many of my professors were apart of some of these administrations, and they are not liberal. I know liberal and some of them really did fit in the moderate camp.
     
  7. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    Even at its worst, most would argue that SBTS was not the most liberal of the big six, and there was still a good contingent of conservatives there (the latter I know for a fact). Some of the stalwarts of the faith right now graduated when SBTS was under control of the moderates.
    So would it be okay for a prof at, say, Harvard Seminary or Union or Princeton to be, say, the Carl FH Henry Evangelical chair of theology? They're there clearly to give an opposing view point.
     
  8. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Apparently you are not familiar with the near Liberal coup at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

    YES, Al Mohler is conservative (as well as being smarter than Einstein). SBTS, however, nearly wasn't. Al Mohler squelched the Liberalism at SBTS.
     
  9. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    I would argue that Mohler was but one part. The seismic shift that occurred via the conservative resurgence in the trusteeship of the seminary (as elected by the churches) was the seminal movement, without which there would have been no Mohler. There is no question that Dr. Mohler's leadership has been extraordinarily pivotal and visionary.

    Some would disagree with you further, in that a coup had already taken place, and that was overturned by the afore mentioned action by the churches to replace the trustees with conservatives.
     
  10. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    I am very familiar. I wasn't sure if you were calling Southern, or Mohler conservative, and your timeline of events. Al Mohler was only a piece of the puzzle during the "conservative resurgence" or in my camp "fundamental takeover."
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Certainly. I was commenting on the contrast intended between Mohler and Southern at the time. However, I think the situation at SBTS was worse than what you and Michael seem to allow. The Holyfield thesis was pretty damning. But whatever the case, at the very least, there were those on the faculty who were clearly unbiblical and the trajectory was not toward the better.

    I don't think they are "clearly there" for an opposing viewpoint. Furthermore, it is an ongoing relationship with liberalism and apostasy, and I don't think "doing good" is an acceptable reason to fail to obey God's command to mark, expose, and separate from them. That seems contrary to me.
     
  12. michaelbowe

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  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Compared to Harvard or Princeton, certainly not. But the "moderates" were more liberal than conservative. There were clearly unbiblical positions being espoused that undermined the foundations of the faith. Whether to classify those as "liberal" will certainly depend on one's view. They were not, by any measure, the historic position of the church at large or the SBC.

    Are you familiar with Hollyfield's thesis from 76? He documented some serious attacks on the faith that were going on, and that was almost twenty years before Mohler.

    During those times the SBC was rife with conflict and the moderates eventually lost. Their direction, since then, including matters of biblical scholarship, women in ministry, and homosexuality has certainly confirmed that they were not in the line of the historic faith of the church or the BFM.

    Here is a link to the tract that came out of the Hollyfield thesis. Like most things, there are probably points up for debate or whatever. I have neither seen it nor read it, but have the reports of it. I have no ties to the SBC so I don't really have a dog in the fight.

    http://www.tbaptist.com/aab/apostasyatsbts.htm
     
  14. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    I am familiar with the Hollyfield thesis. I'm going to disagree with your statement about the moderates position in scholarship, and women in ministry. If I were to explain I'm sure it would take this thread way off the subject.
     
  15. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    1. I don't deny that there were profs there who had no business being there. It took some time for them to be replaced. I will not argue one iota that SBTS is a better place since 1993 (Mohler's installation) than it was prior. However, STL and that faction are not necessarily known for bearing true witness about such matters.

    2. If memory serves me correctly, the tract you reference was discredited years ago. The M.Div thesis this supposedly came from (I believe) never existed. M.Divs didn't write dissertations. That comes only with ThM and PhD programs. Again, this is based on my recollections.

    3. I'm confused about your last point. At one part you assert that there is a difference between teaching in opposition to error and teaching on the staff and giving creedence to the error. Now it seems you are maintaining that there is no difference between the two at all. Do I misunderstand?
     
  16. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    The thesis is real.

    From SBTS's library:

    Main Entry [​IMG]Hollyfield, Noel Wesley, 1947- Title [​IMG]A sociological analysis of the degrees of "Christian orthodoxy" among selected students in the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary / by Noel Wesley Hollyfield, Jr. Imprint [Louisville] : Hollyfield, 1976. Description viii, 156 leaves ; 29 cm.
    General Note Vita.
    Dissertation Note Thesis (Th.M.)--Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
    Bibliography Note Bibliography: leaves 82-85.
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    What is STL? I am not sure who you are talking about there.

    Yes. To teach as a colleague with someone is joining hands in error. By being on the faculty, one is by default a colleague and a participant. They are supporting the institution who allows such error to remain. Being a visiting lecturer invited to refute a specific point is a different story.

    We cannot be party to error of doctrine or of life. The Bible's commands on separation seem clear that we are not even to give a greeting to such people. Teaching on the faculty alongside of certainly crosses that line, it seems to me.
     
  18. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    I haven't read this entire thread, I must confess. I would, however, like to add my personal experience. When one graduates from a liberal school, one is tainted for the rest of one's life. Your other schooling will always be suspect because of the liberal schooling, no matter how good the conservative schools were. Your liberal friends will deem you a fundamentalist and your fundamentalist friends will deem you a liberal.

    Many a person attending a liberal school has ended up denying fundamental truths and ended up serving in liberal churches or leaving ministry altogether.

    Be very careful about making this choice. It just may very well map out your future.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  19. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I have have seen the children of both sides of that fence leave the faith because both sides are incorrect. When we look at Jesus he pointed back to what God wanted instead of what man thinks or wants.
     
  20. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    I was not clear in my post. What I should have said was I question this being an M.Div thesis as these are not required. My representation was unclear and I apologize for that.

    I stand by that the "tract" has been discredited many times over. I have had links but these have gone with the wind of a virus or two over the years.

    Sword of the Lord. Their penchant for being especially loose with facts as they relate to conservatism in the SBC was rampant. I can't say whether or not it is still thus because I choose not to read it any more. Not going to waste my time with tabloid theology,be it from STL or from some other liberal source.

    I see. Thanks f or clarifying. But let me add this now:

    How long is the person there to teach an opposing view? How long is okay? Is a one day seminar okay? what about a semester lectureship? A one year guest lectureship? At one point does this cross the line to "becoming a participant?"
     
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