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Continuation of Why Y'all Aint Calvinists thread

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Mar 5, 2018.

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  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    I agree that this is a problem with some/many, and it is understandable as well. How can someone not be zealous for something that has so changed his life?

    However, we ALL need to do the very difficult work of pushing back against, not our theological opponent's arguments, but our own. The reason for this is that our greatest strengths are often our greatest weaknesses, if left unchecked or without counterbalance.
     
    #21 thatbrian, Mar 6, 2018
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  2. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Again, you are a rare breed. Most non-Cal Evangelicals are synergists. I agree that you are not.
     
    #22 thatbrian, Mar 6, 2018
  3. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    I personally cannot understand the need to read any works by people like Barth, Kierkegaard, Wright, or Bultmann, who have the core Doctrines of the Bible wrong. There are so many people of "sound mind" that we can refer to and use, being Biblically based, than to have the time or need for those who are basically unorthodox. Like a couple of "pastors" that I knew, who for some strange reason not only read the evil books by Dan Brown, but also recommended them. The majority of Christians these days hardly read their Bible, so why ever would a pastor suggest to read such thrash that mocks and blasphemes the God of the Bible, and indeed His Word. The same goes for The Shack, another work from the devil, and "christian" book stores even sell this stuff!
     
    #23 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 6, 2018
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I praise God that there are godly pastors in all camps. I was saved in a church that did not teach strong doctrine on this topic. But I was led by very godly men. People do think differently, and I believe that "free-will theology" is more easily accepted by many. So it is good to know that God has placed men to pastor these churches.
     
    #24 JonC, Mar 6, 2018
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I like reading N.T. Wright for the irony. For decades he was considered the expert on Pauline theology. He was very influential until his study of Paul led him to a conclusion that differed with the traditional Reformed understanding of Justification. It's akin to saying the foremost expert in the field is right until he no longer agrees with the majority. That said, while Wright's conclusions differ from the view accepted since the Reformation, the difference is not Scripture itself. I may not agree with Wright, but what he departs from is not Scripture but our theology.

    I like studying theology (and different theologies). Some concentrated on pastoral degrees, or languages, but in seminary I concentrated on historical theology and church history. I wanted to know not only what churches believed but why they believed it. So part of the reason I read some of these works is just to satisfy a passion. I have found some value in their works, but not as an authority for my faith.
     
    #25 JonC, Mar 6, 2018
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  6. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    you say, "I don't think that we can consider one lexicon as an authority over another", but surely this cannot be right? The Greek lexicon by Dr Joseph Thayer can be very useful and is much used around the world. However, Thayer was a Unitarian who rejected the Holy Trinity, Deity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, so when it comes to dealing with words that refer to ether of these, Thayer makes sure that his "theology" gets in. Likewise the Greek grammar of Dr George Winer, which again is very useful, by like Thayer, Winer was also a Unitarian, and this shows in his inaccurate comments on verses like Titus 2:13. All things are never equal!
     
    #26 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 6, 2018
  7. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    But his "theology" which he claims to be from Scripture, is on a vital Doctrine, and very wrong and misleading.
     
    #27 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 6, 2018
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yea, people always said I was "special". :Laugh
     
    #28 JonC, Mar 6, 2018
  9. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Ah... Now we see your true colors.

    The logical fallacy of the ad hominem.

    The Archangel
     
    #29 The Archangel, Mar 6, 2018
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is on a vital doctrine. I think Wright focused too much on the historical circumstances of first century Judaism. But that does not mean his observations about our traditional approach is in itself wrong. We also base much of our doctrines on tradition and Reformed interpretation as we take for granted an approach to the Jewish religion that may not actually be correct (we highlight what we see as legalism over the Jewish concept of a covenant people). Wright's objections (not his conclusions, but his objections) were dismissed far too quickly.
     
    #30 JonC, Mar 6, 2018
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Without those scriptures - I might not have known that Calvinism fails the sola-scriptura test of the Bible

    interesting
     
    #31 BobRyan, Mar 6, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That's the first clue that they have a problem - when they conclude that the doctrine taught by Calvin is wrong and yet want to be identified as "Calvinist"...
     
    #32 BobRyan, Mar 6, 2018
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Many (myself included) often look to Gordon Fee (Pentecostal, Assembly of God) as a resource.

    I think also what we see too often are pastors and teachers exceeding their ability. We don't have experts in one field any more, and I think scholarship has suffered. For example, 50 years ago I don't think one would even consider calling John MacArthur a "theologian". But now he is somehow an expert in theology, Greek, and textual criticism (to read his commentaries). In reality he is a gifted pastor.
     
    #33 JonC, Mar 6, 2018
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  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I rather like N.T. Wright's conclusions on the final judgment and hell.

    Heaven and Hell in the Scriptures
     
    #34 BobRyan, Mar 6, 2018
  15. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    so you think that Wright is right on Justification?
     
    #35 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 6, 2018
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I haven't considered his view, but just on a light reading he us correct to challenge some ideas prevalent in our churches. Peter tells us that Christians will be judged by their deeds and therefore should fear God. And yes, at this time Hell (the second death) is empty. And in the end we have Heaven coming down, not people going up.
     
    #36 JonC, Mar 6, 2018
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I don't. I think he focused too much on the historical circumstances surrounding first century Judaism. I think he was correct in suggesting we need to reevaluate our traditions insofar as the 16th century definitions and suppositions are often assumed. (He was correct that our view of the 1st century Judiasm sometimes looks an awful lot like the 16th century RCC)..
     
    #37 JonC, Mar 6, 2018
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  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    There has to be a balance between doctrine (talk) and one's life (walk).

    It's the fruit of the Spirit (being led of the Spirit) and that fruit is Love.

    Ya, fruit inspector, I know.

    1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

    Admittedly, sometimes love's correction hurts.

    Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.

    Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
     
    #38 HankD, Mar 6, 2018
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  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I believe it is a mistake to say that Calvies do not understand scripture. Nor are they illiterate. That is a broad claim and really implies that there is no part of scripture in which they get correct. That is not a fair assessment. I believe they apply some passages of scripture, namely in the gospels and the book of Romans incorrectly, but I also believe they understand scripture.

    To make the claim that one does not understand scripture is to apply the whole from Genesis to Revelation. It implies that one does not understand its purpose or underlying message. This would be true of lost people but not of Christians. We should likely be more careful and succinct when making these accusations.
     
    #39 Revmitchell, Mar 6, 2018
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Millennia before today's date the metaphor (or whatever it is) based upon historical fact clearly shows the dilemma of believing Christendom:

    Judges 12
    5 And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay;
    6 Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.

    And it doesn't matter in what camp one resides - just substitute "Gileadites" and "Ephraimites" with the appropriate labels and we have the 21st century dilemma of the fragmentation of Christianity which I believe Jesus predicted in Matthew 13.

    And yes there have been religious wars in which Christians "slew" each other over similar matters.

    Thank goodness its only verbal assault here at the BB :Cool
     
    #40 HankD, Mar 6, 2018
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