Cooking with wine?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Footwasher:


It seems to clear to me that drinking is for the unbeliever, not the believer.
[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: Footwasher ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK; are the unbelievers the ones you give beer and wine to, according to the instructions of this passage ["Give...."]?

 

I don't know. I suppose so. I am certainly no expert. I was just sharing my thoughts on the scripture that you brought up. Who do you think the word "give" is referring to?

[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: Footwasher ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Footwasher:


Because of eternal life in Christ, a believer is not perishing. Because of the joy of the Lord, a believer is not in anguish. Because of the abundant provision of God, a believer is not in poverty.

It seems to clear to me that drinking is for the unbeliever, not the believer.

I don't claim to be any kind of theologian, but this is what comes to mind when I read these verses.

By the way, one drink can destroy a life because of what it leads to. One thing leads to another. See my posts above.

[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: Footwasher ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm... I like your reply footwasher! I think everyone here seems to agree that alcohol can or HAS led CERTAIN people to sin. Maybe it's true that for some people here...it wouldn't do that in their lives. When it was added to standard for membership in our church, our pastor actually made a really good point about it. If it has caused someone else to sin...we would be being a little too self-confident or proud if we were to sit there and say that it wouldn't do the same to us. Satan is not always going to show himself openly when he's at work. Some people feel there is room for speculation since the bible does not CLEARLY call it a sin. Satan will use anything he can, even this question of sin or not sin to achieve his goals. Many a man (and woman) of God have fallen because of this. The bible doesn't say specifically "thou shalt not smoke cigarettes."or "be not smoking" but does that mean its ok for me to do it? No way...the bible DOES tell me that my body is God's temple. When God saved us from our sins and we asked him into our lives, yes, he erased our sins....NOT our ABILITY to sin. He does however give us POWER over sin. We can choose to use it or not. Even Christians, (I know i do anyways) struggle with feeding the flesh. God knows this too. WIth alcohol, maybe it's not causing you to abandon your marriage, go into debt, or any of the horror stories we hear. Maybe you don't even drink enough that you can feel the difference...either way,. most of us don't want to give it up simply because we enjoy it. We like it, we aren't doing anything wrong in our eyes. Except feeding US, our flesh. Personally, I think it becomes unclear to me scripturally, I won't pretend that is doesn't...but I had to decide that IF there was room for doubt, I needed to make sure that I stick with the safest choice here NOT to drink. I certainly don't think anyone would debate and tell you that it was a sin NOT to drink, so, for GOD, just in case it IS sinful....I think I can do that for his sake.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Footwasher:
[QB]I don't know. I suppose so. I am certainly no expert. I was just sharing my thoughts on the scripture that you brought up. Who do you think the word "give" is referring to? QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proverbs 31 begins by saying they are the words of King Lemuel, "prophecy" that his mother taught him. In v. 4 she tells him it is not for kings to drink wine. Then in vv.6,7 she says who wine IS for. This is getting too trivial, but we probably would agree that Lemuel did not go around giving wine to all those in poverty or depression, while shunning it himself. But the words are directed *toward* him.

But should we assume we should live like kings, or do we (some of us, at least) in fact have 'bitter' (v.6) lives. Or is all this chapter-- incuding the 'virtuous woman' described in later verses-- completely irrelevant to us?

 

Phillip said:

HOWEVER -- The big question is, WILL IT HURT YOUR WITNESS IF A NON-CHRISTIAN SEES YOU PURCHASING THE WINE OR BEER?

AND -- The big answer is, no.

 

We are sons and daughters of the King. Does that not count?

Besides, the reason given for kings not to drink is as follows, "lest they drink and forget what the law decrees,
and deprive all the oppressed of their rights."

Clearly, alcohol is shown as not having a particularly positive effect on a ruler.

So my question is, who would you rather identify yourself with? Do you want to be miserable and poor? Or would you rather be like the clearheaded ruler? You know, all believers are leaders in one way or another. Quoting from the Daily Bread devotional booklet: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do you teach Sunday School? You're a leader. Are you a parent? You're a leader. Have a job? You're a leader. Have friends? You're a leader. No matter who you are, others are looking at you and being influenced by your example. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really did not intend to get into an argument here. The point is, I have seen alcohol ruin the lives of Christians who thought they could handle it. It is a dangerous thing. As I said earlier, why give the devil any kind of a foothold?

You know, one thing I've observed is that people will always find a way to try to justify whatever it is they like to do.

So, do what you want! I am saying what I'm saying out of concern for you. But if you won't hear my words of warning, that's your business. Interestingly, Proverbs has some things to say about that, but I won't go there.

God bless you. Grace and peace to you.

[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: Footwasher ]

 

Gina asked:

RANSOM: How can you speak for each and every one of them?

Why can't I? When they go around telling me that buying wine or beer "hurts my witness," they are speaking for me, aren't they? I'm simply returning the favour.

You can't say what they think!

And neither can they say what I think.

 

Hi, I am Baptist and grew up in a houshold and a church that disallowed drinking of alcohol. I just want to add an exeroence I had a couple moths ago with a friend that really settled the issue for me concerning drinking. My Christian friend told me that he drank and had some beers at times etc... So I in my mind was critical and judgmental so i was mulling over this fact for a couple days when he told me of a couple that he witnessed to and later was used to lead them to the Lord Praise God. He was running the sound at a festival and He and his boss took a break and went to the beer tent to listen to a band and have a beer while their he started talking to this couple and got to know them and he invited them to his church and gave them his nmber, they didnt go that weekend but called him about at midnight one night crying and he went over there and led hem to the Lord. Do I have to Praise God for the fact that he was free enough to drink a beer and go to a beer tent at a festival. He went to a place were most of us Baptists wouldnt be caught dead in(probably because somewhere in our constitutions it says we cant go to someplace like that So God showed me personally how having a beer can be used by God to be a witness and to lead someone to Christ. I was deeply convicted by God for ever judging anyone for having a drink and drinking in moderation.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dfd2:
Hi, I am Baptist and grew up in a houshold and a church that disallowed drinking of alcohol. I just want to add an exeroence I had a couple moths ago with a friend that really settled the issue for me concerning drinking. My Christian friend told me that he drank and had some beers at times etc... So I in my mind was critical and judgmental so i was mulling over this fact for a couple days when he told me of a couple that he witnessed to and later was used to lead them to the Lord Praise God. He was running the sound at a festival and He and his boss took a break and went to the beer tent to listen to a band and have a beer while their he started talking to this couple and got to know them and he invited them to his church and gave them his nmber, they didnt go that weekend but called him about at midnight one night crying and he went over there and led hem to the Lord. Do I have to Praise God for the fact that he was free enough to drink a beer and go to a beer tent at a festival. He went to a place were most of us Baptists wouldnt be caught dead in(probably because somewhere in our constitutions it says we cant go to someplace like that So God showed me personally how having a beer can be used by God to be a witness and to lead someone to Christ. I was deeply convicted by God for ever judging anyone for having a drink and drinking in moderation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is wonderful that your friend was able to do this..however, don't be fooled into thinking that it was the beer that God used as a witness. He could have been there with a soda or water in his hand and had the same effect. Because after all, when God puts us in front of someone and gives us the opportunity to share his word with them...this is really the Holy Spirit working THROUGH us, it's not of us. Yes, he was there in the right place at the right time, but you know that the bible tells us that Jesus ministered to the murderers, prostitutes, the drunkards. He witnessed to them and showed them God's love in a way more perfect than we ever will, and I'm sure you'd admit that Jesus was pretty effective. However, never did he have to murder some one so that he would fit in with the murderers, never did he sell his body OR partake in the services of a prostitute just so that he could fit in with them and put them more at ease. He just loved them. Yes, I do think that some churches go to the extreme to a point that they are not facilitating to what God wants us to do in reaching the unsaved. You can't wrap yourself into a cocoon letting no one near and expect to be a tool for God. And of course we shouldn't judge someone else because of their choices. Some of my dear friends drink, granted they are not saved. I used to drink with them and it really was a hard for me to stick to my hearts decision about drinking at first when I was around them. Now, things are fine, they respect my decision and I dont pretend to stand in judgement of them. If I stop by unannounced and the husband is drinking a beer, he doesnt hurry to hide it. He knows that I'm not going to judge him. I don't, because I'm not one speak. After all, I am still a sinner, a sinner saved by grace but a sinner no less. The only difference is that in being saved, God has given me power over sin...the unsaved do not have this power and so it's my opinion that I should be judged more harshly when I sin then him, He doesn't compromise his witness when he sins, I do.

 

Gina said:

You know, why it said wine and not beer in the Bible.

But the Bible does speak of "strong drink," often distinguished from wine. The Hebrew word so translated, shekar, simply means any fermented liquor. Furthermore, brewing was well known, and beer a staple, in ancient Mesopotamia (where Abraham came from) and Egypt (from which the children of Israel came), and so it is virtually certain that the Israelites knew of, and probably used, beer as well as wine.

And where DO we draw the line? What about a rum and coke? A little Khalua? Some JB? Why or why not?

Don't see why not. Distilled liquors such as the above are foreign to the Bible, the technology to produce them not existing until the Middle Ages. So we have to go by analogy; I judge that what the Bible says about wine and strong drink also goes for later innovations - with a special emphasis on the warnings against drunkenness, considering the greater potency of liquor.

Think I'll stick with a good cigar now and then.

Now, I haven't smoked one of THOSE to the glory of God in a long time!

 

Footwasher,

I understand where you are coming from, it is known that if alcolholism is a generational problem then for one to take even one drink it would be hard to not become addicted. My family did not suffer from alcolholism so really its not difficult for me to say no to a drink which I have many times for reasons of responsibility of taking care of my child or other reasons. I don't need the drink, there are just times when I will drink basically because I enjoy the mixed flavored drinks.

Yes one drink can lead to alcolholism but then again...it doesn't have to and it doesn't always. You just have to look at the backround and know to discipline your own life and be responsible.

Sue

 

Okay, I have to leave this discussion for good. I am getting emotional. I am almost in tears because I want so badly to warn you all of the dangers, but I am not being heard.

God bless you. Grace and peace to you.

 

Footwasher said:

So, do what you want! I am saying what I'm saying out of concern for you. But if you won't hear my words of warning, that's your business. Interestingly, Proverbs has some things to say about that, but I won't go there.

Isn't it odd that we all pray - or are supposed to, anyway - that God will "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil," and yet so many people seem not to allow that the good Lord might do exactly that when it comes to moderate drinking?

 

Footwasher,

I am very sorry if I upset you or offended you in anyway. I totally grasp where you are coming from. I also know that not everyone has a problem with becoming addicted to certain things. You always have to put discipline in all things and let Christ be your backbone. That is why I say, some can and come can't.

Sue

 

Gina said:

Ransom, honestly, and out of curiosity, how much do you drink? Beer, right? Hope you don't mind me asking.

No, not at all. It's no secret.

I've never sat down and figured out what I consume, but as a fair estimate, let's say that on any given day, the odds of my having some kind of alcoholic beverage is somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3.

I will add to this (following on my previous post about "lead us not into temptation") that I have never been tempted to drink or use alcohol sinfully. If it is what I feel like and I have it available, then I drink it. If not, then I find something else.

 

Hey Ransom,
Thats barely social drinking. Dont worry about it.
Russell

 

What if I wanted to purchase a little pornography? Suppose I could handle it just fine and for the sake of this argument, lets say that lust wasn’t an issue. Would it be wrong of me to support an industry that ruins lives?