Could someone explain?

It gets worse! The blessed Virgin is now "all holy" Mother of God. Granted that Mary is the mother of God and that she prays for the Church, she remains a woman subject to original sin and the limitations of time and space.

The church has always confessed this, in the words of the sixth century Gloria in Excelsis, Jesus alone is holy. Jesus alone in the hypostatic union transcends the human limitations of time and space. </font>[/QUOTE]Why would this bother you ("all holy"). Holy by the definition we are using means dedicated to God. Of course this dedication requires some sort of rejection of sin. To be "all holy" would mean total rejection of sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Is Mary's rejection of sin subsequent to her "Immaculate Conception" meritorious? Does she thereby earn eternal and temporal benefits for herself and the Church?

Although contrary to scripture, the "Immaculate Conception," in and of itself, is not Christological error. The church universally confesses that Jesus did not receive original sin from His mother. Jesus is true man because original sin is theologically an "accident" not of the substance of man. However, from the "Immaculate Conception" dogma, RCC then derives its heretical teaching that Mary is the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. The RCC should repent of this apostasy and return to the Nicene Creed.

As St. Irenaeus says, 'Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race' #494 Catechism of the Catholic Church

This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death #964 Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

Ray --

If I tell you this one more time, will you LISTEN???? I have been over this numerous times and quite frankly, it is getting tiring speaking to you when you refuse to sit down and ponder what I have said.

Salvation is all of God. It is 100% free. It cannot be earned. It is God's plan of redemption from beginning to end. Eternal life, however, is the inheritance of salvation. Jesus speaks of it as inheritance and St. Paul speaks of it as inheritance. Getting in the family is a free adoption by grace. Staying in the family requires obedience to the Law of God, or do you believe that just because you "assepted Jaaaaayzuz"} you can live anyway you wish and not be disinherited at the end of your miserable life? Some folks think that. May God have mercy on them in the Judgment

1. Christ dies for sinners. Only Jesus could die to provide redemption and the restoration of mankind to God. No man can do this, although prior to Christ there are 13 other "crucified saviors" of other pagan religions which try to usurp that claim. Those "messiahs" still rot in their graves, while our Savior lives, proof that He -- Jesus the Christ -- was indeed that promised One.

2. No man can enter into salvation by himself. That is the heresy of Pelegianism, which states that men can enter into salvation without the necessary work of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who calls to all the world, pointing by various means to the Son of God crucified for sins.

3. When a man steps forward to make a covenant with God, he does so only because God has worked in his heart and given him the gift of faith. Faith is a gift according to Eph. 2: 8. Again, we have nothing to do in this.

4. We are called to "believe unto salvation" are we not? We are, in other words, called to DO SOMETHING. There is a cooperative aspect of our salvation wherein God desires that our freewill response be given in the making of covenant with God.

Now you Protestants who constantly deride Catholics for submitting to baptism and call that "works salvation" have no problem insisting that a man make a "decision for Jesus" and you do not call that "works salvation".

Suppose you kindly tell me the difference. Both actions require faith in the Savior and an assent of the will to do what He has told us to do. The difference is, of course, that the Protestant action has no historic precedent, whereas baptism, i.e., the making of covenant with God, traces itself back to the first century.

5. Perseverence in the faith is the gift of God also. We cannot by ourselves persevere to the end. The Catholic Catechism teaches this.

So all is of God and nothing of me. At the great and fearful Judgment Seat of the Lord, my works, which are done in order to "keep covenant" with God, will be NOTHING of which I can boast, but are simply Christ working through me to do His good will. So again, even when I do that which I must do to ensure my reception of eternal life, it is not me doing it, but the loving influence of God in my life striving to keep me in the Way of Life to the end.

The difference between us is that you think that salvation is a Roman courtroom in which the Judge, one God Almightly, upon the recommendation of Christ the Substitutionary Advocate for the defense, issues a permanent pardon to the guilty sinner.

That, as I have told you numerous times till I am quite blue in the face IS NOT HOW COVENANT WORKS!!!

I know you pride yourself on your seminary education, but I am telling you -- you need to go get a refund. They did not teach you how a covenant works.

Would you PLEASE go read Ray Sutton's book online? I am having fits trying to teach you because you haven't grasped yet that the legal paradigm of Protestantism is not covenantal and therefore cannot be salvation.

Go read Deut 29. You will see that covenants are made with oaths/sanctions and can be broken.

Better yet, suppose you find me a passage in scripture in which either God the Father or Jesus the Christ outlines the New Covenant in such a way as to change the very way a covenant works. The principles of covenant are outlined in the OT. Find me the verses which state that the New Covenant will operate upon different principles.

The ticket on the train to Heaven is free, but if you jump off the train once it is going, then who's fault is that?

Brother Ed

 

CatholicConvert, you make two serious mistakes in your chastisement of Ray, 1.

Salvation is what one receives as an inheritance resulting from the one's belief in Jesus, even on his name. SALVATION = ETERNAL LIFE.

"Getting in the family" is by one's acceptance of the invitation given by the head of the family to ANY and ALL who believe in the Head of the Family.

Yes, once in the family you are expected to obey the Head of the family in your daily life. If you disobey unrepentedly, you excommunicate yourself from the family, because such unrepentant disobedience shows that you do not believe in the family or its head, but have instead attempted to enter the family kingdom fraudulently...the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing. "By their fruits shall ye know them".

2.

Well, let's see what the gift of God is. Is is Faith? Is it Grace? or is it Salvation?

If Faith, why are there so many scriptures commanding us to have faith or admonishing us because we lack faith, or condemning us because we have no faith? If faith were the gift of God, then by all means, every man would have faith!

If Grace, why are there so many scriptures that say it is God's grace, by God's grace, in God's grace, etc. If grace was the gift, every man would have grace, but all one needs do is look around at the men around us and you see very few who actually have grace. However, God's grace is everywhere that man is. It is like the sunlight that shines on the just and unjust alike. So God behaving in accordance with his Grace, retains every minute particle of his Grace, none of it is given or transferred to man. But it does constrain God's behavior toward man.

So if not faith or Grace, then the Free Gift of God must be Salvation to those who, while under God's grace, came to have faith in God, and His only begotten Son Jesus.

THE FREE GIFT OF GOD SPOKEN OF IN EPHESIANS 2:8 IS SALVATION, not faith, and not grace.

 

Here is serious mistake number 3.

When one is baptised, one actually gets baptised because the church has "convinced" that one that baptism is necessary to receive salvation. There is nothing salvific in baptism!

Now, is the "choice to be baptised a work? Or, is it actually being baptised that is the work? I trust you can see that the actual act of being baptised is the work, and not the choice to be baptised.

For protestants, the choice to believe in Jesus is like the choice to be baptised and it is not a work! Not, at least any more a work than the choice to be baptised is a work.

 

Mistake number 4.

Jesus, who alway does the father's will, tells Nicodemus that it is one's faith condition that determines the verdict before God's judgment, and those who have faith in Jesus are not judged, but those without faith are judged already by their unbelief.

As you probably already know, there is a separating of the sheep from the Goats in heaven before presentation before the judgment throne. How do you suppose it is determined which are sheep and which are goats?
Wow, That's pretty clever of you to see that it is the faith condition of one's spirit that makes the distinction. Those with faith are Jesus' sheep, the ones who hear his voice, while the ones without faith are the Goats. You're so smart! I just knew you had the right answer.

 

Brother Ed is correct. Protestants have out "work righteousness" the Catholics. The Catholics may have indulgences, purgatory, and the sacrifice of the mass but Protestants have the believer re-baptism, the memorial supper, and the decision for Jesus. These works of righteousness on our part save no one!

Accordingly, we believe, teach, and confess that our righteousness before God is (this very thing), that God forgives us our sins out of pure grace, without any work, merit, or worthiness of ours preceding, present, or following, that He presents and imputes to us the righteousness of Christ's obedience, on account of which righteousness we are received into grace by God, and regarded as righteous.
We believe, teach, and confess that faith alone is the means and instrument whereby we lay hold of Christ, and thus in Christ of that righteousness which avails before God, for whose sake this faith is imputed to us for righteousness, Rom. 4, 5.
Formula of Concord, Epitome, Of the Righteousness of Faith before God, 1580

 

No, becausw your mind is made up not to listen to us.

So far so good. If you really believed that you would have a chance at salvation.

This is where you go wrong and have a complete misunderstanding of Scripture. Eternal life is salvation. The two are inseparable and are gained by FAITH. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Faith is the one requrement for salvation. Faith is the one requirement for eternal life. Your problem is in the definition of faith. Once you figure out what faith is, part of your problem will be solved.
DHK

 

Brother Ed,

You said, ' Jesus speaks of it as inheritance and St. Paul speaks of it as inheritance. Getting in the family is a free adoption by grace. Staying in the family requires obedience to the Law of God . . . '

Ray is saying, 'Brethren who believe in the absolute security for the believer will understand what I am about to say. Your last phrase that starts out with the word, 'Staying' is where you moved away from salvation by faith alone, into a synergism called salvation by faith, plus your performance in the Christian life. The combination of grace received by faith, with the addition of obedience to the Law or the Catholic Church is what makes it purloined.

You said, 'Or do you believe that just because you "assepted Jaaaaayzuz"} you can live anyway you wish . . . '

Ray is saying, 'I am quite ready to stand before the Lord because of what I teach. You have no idea the strong arm and the length of His arm in dealing with wayward children of God. The church or denomination means nothing, because He disciplines Catholics as well as Protestants. [Hebrews chapter twelve]

You said, ' . . . and not be disinherited at the end of your miserable life?'

Ray is saying, 'God does not give intermittent life; He gives everlasting life to those who believe in Him. I grew up in a Nazarene Church which in this matter of being in and out of grace is much like the Catholic view, in this limited sense. When I got to Bible College and studied, without ceasing, I learned much about God's salvation. Hebrews six speaks of the 'immutability of His counsel . . . . and of our strong consolation' in Jesus Christ. He does not give and take salvation as we used to say as kids, He is not an Indian giver. [John 3:16]

You said, 'May God have mercy on them in the Judgment.'

Ray is saying, 'People who believe in the absolute security of the believer as well as those who believe salvation can be given an taken back again by Him, fall into backsliding. Those who love Jesus will remain faithful, while, those who's faith becomes weak will begin to fall away from fellowship with Christ.



You said, 'No man can enter into salvation by himself.

Ray is saying, 'You are right, the Holy Spirit woos the sinner to Himself by the ministry of the Holy Spirit.'

You said, 'When a man steps forward to make a covenant with God, he does so
only because God has worked in his heart and given him the gift of faith.

Ray is saying, 'If you look a little closer Christ and His grace is the gift of God to sinners. [Ephesians 2:8] Faith will always remain man's human response to His offered grace.

You said, 'We are called to "believe unto salvation" are we not?'

Ray is saying, 'You are absolutely right!'

You said, 'We are, in other words, called to DO SOMETHING. There is a cooperative aspect of our salvation wherein God desires that our freewill response be given in the
making of covenant with God.'

Ray is saying, 'You are absolutely correct in your above statement.'

You said, 'Now you Protestants who constantly deride Catholics for submitting to baptism and call that "works salvation" have no problem insisting that a man make a "decision for Jesus" and you do not call that "works salvation'.

Ray is saying, 'As you said we have a freewill and when we are moved to accept Christ as personal Savior, it is our faith in Him and His work at the Cross which saves us. We do not consider faith as a work or human effort. When Christ has done all of the work-via the Cross of redemption, we can add nothing to it. Christ died for our sins. [I Cor. 15:3; I John 2:2] If I contribute one cintilla of 'a work' then I am submitting a contribution to my own hope of Heaven.

You said, 'Suppose you kindly tell me the difference. Both actions require faith in the
Savior and an assent of the will to do what He has told us to do. The
difference is, of course, that the Protestant action has no historic
precedent, whereas baptism, i.e., the making of covenant with God, traces
itself back to the first century.

Ray is saying, 'I differ with the immersion Baptists at this point. The Bible speaks of household baptism, which to me, appears to allow for minors to be baptized in water. [Acts 16:15] This is another whole issue.

You said, 'Perseverence in the faith is the gift of God also. We cannot by ourselves
persevere to the end. The Catholic Catechism teaches this.

Ray is saying, 'I too believe that He works in our lives so that we love Him and desire to please Him.' The Holy Spirit indwells us and keeps us holy and full of 'good works.' But only because He is at work in us.

You said, 'So all is of God and nothing of me. At the great and fearful Judgment Seat
of the Lord, my works, which are done in order to "keep covenant" with
God, will be NOTHING of which I can boast, but are simply Christ working
through me to do His good will.

Ray is saying, 'I agree with you in the above statement.'

You said, 'So again, even when I do that which I must do to ensure my reception of eternal life, it is not me doing it, but the loving influence of God in my life striving to keep me in the Way of Life to the end.'

Ray is saying, 'I basicily agree with your above statement.'

You said, 'The difference between us is that you think that salvation is a Roman
courtroom in which the Judge, one God Almightly, upon the
recommendation of Christ the Substitutionary Advocate for the defense,
issues a permanent pardon to the guilty sinner.'

Ray is saying, 'Basicily yes.'

You said, 'I know you pride yourself on your seminary education, but I am telling you
n you need to go get a refund.

Ray is saying, 'All glory and praise has long ago gone to Christ who gave me the opportunity and perseverence to study for His further glory and praise.'

You said, 'They did not teach you how a covenant works.

Ray is saying, 'Actually the seminary where I got my first theological degree taught that it was possible to lose ones faith. Or in you way of saying it to break the covenant. But, with further study I found out that the only entity that brings about the covenant is faith in Jesus plus nothing. This covenant we may mess up, but He never disowns His own elect people. [John 10:27]

You are saying, 'Would you PLEASE go read Ray Sutton's book online? I am having fits
trying to teach you because you haven't grasped yet that the legal paradigm of Protestantism is not covenantal and therefore cannot be salvation.'

Ray is saying, 'I am listening to all of your words, but you are incapable of teaching me your error coming out of the faith-works religion of Catholicism. I know more about the covenant than you because I know that He has made an everlasting covenant with Christians. You refuse to accept this because the Bible is in counter-distinction to your Catholic teachings.

You said, 'Go read Deut 29. You will see that covenants are made with oaths/sanctions and can be broken.'

Ray is saying, 'Without looking at this passage, I must remind you that you are not living before Christ's coming through Mary but after His ascencion. Christians call this the covenant of grace.

You said, 'Better yet, suppose you find me a passage in scripture in which either God the Father or Jesus the Christ outlines the New Covenant in such a way as to change the very way a covenant works. The principles of covenant are outlined in the OT. Find me the verses which state that the New Covenant will operate upon different principles.

Ray is saying, 'John 3:16 & I John 5:11, 13, 18 for starters clearly suggest that the Lord gives Christians eternal life when they believe. There are no conditions other than faith found after I John 5:11-21. Jesus speaking through John does not say for example, "Keep up your good works or I will disown you."

You said, 'The ticket on the train to Heaven is free, but if you jump off the train once it is going, then who's fault is that?'

Ray is saying, 'I don't recall the Bible saying that going to Heaven was like a train ride. But, if you jump off the train, He will kick you around until you catch the next Fast Flyer. The Lord calls this discipline/punishment . . . chastisement. Notice: Hebrews 12 & I Corinthians 11:30-32.

Blessings
Ray

 

Your last phrase that starts out with the word, 'Staying' is where you moved away from salvation by faith alone, into a synergism called salvation by faith, plus your performance in the Christian life. The combination of grace received by faith, with the addition of obedience to the Law or the Catholic Church is what makes it purloined.

Funny, I heard the same thing I was a Presbyterian. It's not just those in the Catholic Faith who believe that the keeping of the Law of God is the Summa Bonum of the Christian life and that which we must to do maintain our relationship. I once again appeal to the marital relationship which is used as a typological picture of our relationship to God. If the wife or husband break the relationship with each other, then do the truly have a marriage, or are they just living together? Marriage is much more than being two people under one roof...it involves union and intimacy in love. THAT can be lost in a relationship. Likewise, in our relationship to God.

Ray is saying, 'God does not give intermittent life; He gives everlasting life to those who believe in Him.

Once again, I must respectfully submit to that which scripture teaches rather than either you or any denomination. Romans 2: 5 - 10 is quite clear that the Great Judgment is where the Lord will review each life and give eternal life to those who have done good (vs 7 ) and eternal death to those who have done evil (vs 8).

Or let me put it another way. We have a "downpayment" which is the Holy Spirit. Because He is in us, eternal life as a downpayment is in us. But the Great Judgment either finalizes our state of bliss and gives us the REST OF WHAT WAS PROMISED AS A DOWNPAYMENT, or we are stripped of that which we were given and sent out of the eternal household forever. Remember, a downpayment is NOT THE FULL AND COMPLETE AMOUNT.

I grew up in a Nazarene Church which in this matter of being in and out of grace is much like the Catholic view, in this limited sense. When I got to Bible College and studied, without ceasing, I learned much about God's salvation.

Ray, you went to one of literally thousands of Protestant "Bible Colleges" which litter the land. Each one teaches something different. You tuned in and learned what the school in Myerstown was teaching and that made you who you are. If you had gone to Gordon Conwell, you would have discovered a different "truth" that the Bible teaches. If you had gone to Covenant Presbyterian, you would have learned still another different set of doctrinal "truths" that the Bible supposedly teaches. It all depends upon the school you go to.

Hebrews six speaks of the 'immutability of His counsel . . . . and of our strong consolation' in Jesus Christ. He does not give and take salvation as we used to say as kids, He is not an Indian giver.

Once again, sir.....you do not know covenant.

Ray is saying, 'You are right, the Holy Spirit woos the sinner to Himself by the ministry of the Holy Spirit.'

That is a very Catholic teaching. Maybe there's hope for you yet!

Ray is saying, 'If you look a little closer Christ and His grace is the gift of God to sinners. [Ephesians 2:8] Faith will always remain man's human response to His offered grace.

Does man have faith, or is it the gift of God also? I would be interested in a discussion of this idea.

Ray is saying, 'As you said we have a freewill and when we are moved to accept Christ as personal Savior, it is our faith in Him and His work at the Cross which saves us. We do not consider faith as a work or human effort. When Christ has done all of the work-via the Cross of redemption, we can add nothing to it. Christ died for our sins. [I Cor. 15:3; I John 2:2] If I contribute one cintilla of 'a work' then I am submitting a contribution to my own hope of Heaven.

When you understand that salvation is different from eternal life, you will understand why we are not practicing "works salvation".

Ray is saying, 'I differ with the immersion Baptists at this point. The Bible speaks of household baptism, which to me, appears to allow for minors to be baptized in water. [Acts 16:15] This is another whole issue.

Actually, I agree with immersion as the proper picture of the reality of what is happening to the sinner, who is being joined to Christ in death, burial, and resurrection according to Romans 6:3. Only immersion can show that.

You said, 'So again, even when I do that which I must do to ensure my reception of eternal life, it is not me doing it, but the loving influence of God in my life striving to keep me in the Way of Life to the end.'

Ray is saying, 'I basicily agree with your above statement.'

Ray, there is a mysterious synergy which involves our free will and cooperation with God. When I describe it, because I am both human and imperfect in my ability to communicate, it sounds like I am insisting that "I" am the one doing it. However, in everything I am reading which is orthodoxly Catholic, the descriptions are making it clear that it is God "working to do His will and good pleasure in us" yet at the same time respecting our free will to disobey Him that we not be robotic beings. In order to be in His image, we must be creatures who can CHOOSE to either love and obey or not love and disobey. Yet, in this mystery, at the end of time, we who receive eternal bliss with Him shall find and admit that it was all He Who enabled us to persevere to the end.

You said, 'The difference between us is that you think that salvation is a Roman
courtroom in which the Judge, one God Almightly, upon the recommendation of Christ the Substitutionary Advocate for the defense,
issues a permanent pardon to the guilty sinner.'

Ray is saying, 'Basicily yes.'

Ray, it ISN'T!!! Everything God has done from the very BEGINNING has had a familial and covenantal tone to it, starting with the FAMILY which was Adam and Eve. If God created mankind in His image, than the family, not the courtroom, is the image of God. Ponder that for a bit, okay?

Ray is saying, 'I am listening to all of your words, but you are incapable of teaching me your error coming out of the faith-works religion of Catholicism. I know more about the covenant than you because I know that He has made an everlasting covenant with Christians. You refuse to accept this because the Bible is in counter-distinction to your Catholic teachings.

I told you that Sutton wrote this book AS A PRESBYTERIAN. I personally think you are scared to read it. Heck, it might make a sacramentalist out of you, right?

Ray is saying, 'John 3:16 & I John 5:11, 13, 18 for starters clearly suggest that the Lord gives Christians eternal life when they believe. There are no conditions other than faith found after I John 5:11-21. Jesus speaking through John does not say for example, "Keep up your good works or I will disown you."

No sir. Those are not clear and unambiguous statements which outline a new way in which the covenant works. I am looking for something which outlines the change just as clearly as Deut. 29 outlines the way that covenant works. You cannot take a single verse and change a whole fundamental and foundational concept of God's dealing with mankind just because it suits your theology.

I need more proof of the basic change in covenantal conditions than one verse torn out of context from the rest of Scripture.

Brother Ed

 

Catholic Convert,

You said, 'If God created mankind in His image, than the family, not the courtroom, is the image of God. Ponder that for a bit, okay?'

Ray is saying, 'I will not say that this is a perfect definition of 'the image of God in man',
but we have all of the characteristics that the Lord Jesus had while on earth and also now that He is in Heaven. He is God of love, mercy, justice, and so on plus He has a spiritual body now that we will enjoy in eternity.

We welcome also the idea of the family of God and that we were created after His likeness.

The concept of the courtroom is the idea that best portrays what the Lord does for us in His Divine act of justification of the human being. We are acquitted of all sins and are made righteous in the eyes of the Lord. He no longer looks at us as having been sinners, but instead because of our faith in Him, He looks at us as if we had never sinned. That is why John said in I John 3:2 that 'Now we are the sons of God . . . ' We do not have to wait until after Purgatory to find out if we passed the test. He passed the test for us by removing all of our present, past and future sins at the Cross. This is we when we receive Christ's free grace, we are eternally bound to Him by the blood, the will of the Father and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The image of God, the family of God, and justification/the court room are three unique truths and theological concepts. I wish we could sit at a theological library and gather data together, and see what we could come up with for our own spiritual depth and renewal.

Ray

 

Excellent point Ray. And so it is not surprising that God USES that Courtroom literally in Daniel 7 to have "judgment passed in favor of the saints".

And it is not surprising that all of Romans 2 is dedicated to a future courtroom event "WHEN according to My Gospel God will judge" - Romans 2:13-16.

In Christ,

Bob

 

'Justification is an act of God's free grace, wherein He pardons all our sins, and accepts us as righteous in His sight, only for the righteousness of Christ, imputed to us, and received by faith alone.' {Westminster Shorter Catechism} from Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer's text, "Systematic Theology" Kregel Publications,Volume VII, p. 219.

This is truth not because the Westminster Catechism says so but because the Word of the Living God says so. Helpful verses: Romans 5:1; *Romans 4:5; John 1:12. This may stretch your faith but this glorious truth is deeply formed in the Being of Almighty God and, of course, it is grounded in His written Word.

'Justification is a declaration by God respecting the Christian that he has been made forever right and acceptable to Himself.' Dr. Chafer, Vol. VII, p. 219.

'Justification is a peculiarly Pauline term. The verb is used forty times in the N.T., but Paul uses the word twenty-nine times. Justification is a legal act whereby God declares the believing sinner righteous on the basis of the blood of Christ. The basic meaning of justification is 'to declare righteous.' Dr. Paul Enns, "The Moody Handbook of Theology, Moody Press, p. 110.

When a sinner has faith in Jesus his or her sins are remitted and his/her name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Christ declares that sinner a being as perfect as the Holy Spirit, and in fact that new person in Christ is baptized into the Spirit, [Romans 6:3] indwelled by the Spirit, [I John 3:9] and anointed by the Spirit. [I John 2:27] As Christians we are declared righteous before the throne of God and He no longer looks at us as saints who were forgiven, He looks at us as if we had never sinned against Him. In fact, in I John 3:2 the Apostle John says, we indeed are the 'sons and daughters of the living God.'

Sinners were made a little lower than angels, but now because of our justification we have a position loftier than the angels of God. This, however, does not mean that we cannot stumble in our faith life. We must always be on guard against the Adversary the Devil. If we fail, at times, this does not destroy our standing with God, but it does destroy our closeness and fellowship with God. We are the people of God and are made one with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Where does it say this in the Bible? [John 17:11,22,26]

At the moment of our justification, God imputes or gives to us the very righteousness of Jesus Christ as a gift. Proof: [Romans 4:3,5,6,] In fact, God promises to His people that He will not ever again hold any sin against us that would endanger us as far as going to Hell. Proof: [Romans 4:8] This is glorious truth coming from our Savior, but it will make some of you stretch your present faith and understanding of Him. Let Him do this for you; it will explain a lot of the other portions of His most precious Word.

 

Ray -

The justification event of Romans 5 "Having BEEN justified we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" appears to be your focus above. It is individual, subjective, internal and occurs at the moment we confess and believe (as we see in Romans 10). Sins are forgiven and we become a new creation (2Cor 5) - heirs according to the promise (Ephesians 1). As Paul says in Philipians 3 speaking of the promises to the sains given as part of that justification "Not that I have already obtained it.. but this one thing I do forgetting those things ( values/sins in this world) that are behind and pressing on.."

However the Daniel 7 and Romans 2 future justification event - that takes place in a courtroom and is future to Paul's day as he says in Romans 2 - is corporate, objective, external and future to the NT author's day.

Bob