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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by tyndale1946, Mar 15, 2023.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @percho,
    What did Jesus know He had already finished before He gave up His spirit?
    John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things now have been finished, . . ." YLT
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Were the specific individual sins of every born anew believe laid on Christ while Christ was alive and hanging on the cross?

    1 Peter 2:24 (interpretive translation)
    Who Himself removed our sin's penalties by dying on the cross so you might come away from sin's penalties to living for righteousness, because you were healed by means of His sacrificial suffering.

    First the ones addressed by "our" and "you" are those born anew and thus having undergo the washing of regeneration.

    The sin penalties removed are (1) forgiven and (2) remembered no more forever.

    I have addressed when sins are washed away many times. Why do you not recall the washing of regeneration??? Christ provided the means of removal when He died as the Lamb of God, but our individual sin burden was removed only when we underwent the washing of regeneration, together with Christ.
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    1 Peter 2:24 (proper translation)
    'Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness -- by whose stripes you were healed.'
    Interpreted by
    Isaiah 53:6. 'All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one, into his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.'
    Yahweh laid upon our Lord all the sins of His people ('us') and He bore them, and the curse that lay upon us (hence 'tree'). By our union with Him, we have died to sin (Romans 6:1) and risen to new life in Him.(Colossians 2:13). But our being dead in trespasses being spiritual, our new birth (regeneration) is also spiritual . Christ, of course, being sinless, needed no regeneration, being resurrected or raised from the dead. As was pointed out in the O.P., to say that Christ was regenerated is either an accidental faux pas or a serious error.
     
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Sin in, the likeness of the sinful flesh of Jesus, for the following purpose [Rom 8:3,4 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.] [note: The Spirit could not be given/received until death and resurrection and glorified John which would come through being raised out of the dead. John 16:7 John 7:39] The Son made sin is what was finished which brings forth the death. Christ was made sin then he gave his life, Died. James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
     
  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I think this OP will be the appropriate place to ask the following.

    Romans 8:24 YLT for in hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for it?

    to the for hope we were saved < passed tense, I assume that was by what Jesus did. I also assume that those who actually see that hope were given the Holy Spirit.

    Just exactly what is that hope of which we presently cannot behold?

    Is it not the redemption of the body of verse 23? Now consider Titus 3:6,7. Six states the Holy Spirit, through, Jesus Christ was shed on us. Then verse seven says copy and paste NKJV that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Is that hope the same hope of Rom 8:24? Is redemption of the body literally eternal life in body of which we are currently heirs not inheritors and or hope for yet not behold?

    Next question. Jesus the Son is stated to be the heir of all things Hebrews 1:2, Jesus told his disciples he would die and be raised out of the dead on the third day, Jesus was dead not living as all of you believe. He was dead as he said. See Romans 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship;

    When did the heir inherit eternal life? When did he become the preeminence of life out of the dead?

    I do not believe we will inherit anything that the Son, the heir of all things, did not first, inherit.

    Titus 1:3 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    KI believe that promise was made for the sinless Son of God who would die for our sins. If he had not inherited it neither shall we, The gospel is The Son died and inherited the promise of God therefore can we also.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, the claimed "proper translation" does not even come close to the Greek text.

    Does the verse say "bore our sins" or "removed our sin's penalties."
    Did Christ die on a crucifixion cross or on a tree?
    Does the verse say we "died" to sins? Or the "ones that might come away from sin's penalties?"

    1 Peter 2:24 (interpretive translation)
    Who Himself removed our sin's penalties by dying on the cross so you might come away from sin's penalties to living for righteousness, because you were healed by means of His sacrificial suffering.
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    LOL, The KJV, NKJV, NIV, ESV, NASB and CSB all say that He bore our sins. What qualification have you got, Van, that allows you to say that they're all wrong?
    The Greek word translated 'bore' is anenenken, which is the Aorist, active 3rd Person singular of anaphero, which means to bear aloft or to sustain a burden. See Hebrews 9:28. Isaiah 53:6 tells us that 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' Our sins were laid upon Him and He bore them. Of course by bearing them on our behalf, He also paid (More than simply 'removed') the penalty for our sin, and by doing so expiated it. But to deny that He bore our sins is to deny not only the Scripture, but the whole Gospel.
    Why did the Holy Spirit lead Peter to write 'tree' instead of 'cross'? Because Christ has also expiated the curse that was upon upon us for our sins (Galatians 3:10-14).
    Does the verse say we 'died' to sins'? Yes. 'That we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness.'

    When Van attempts his 'interpretative translations,' he is like the proverbial blind hog rooting about for acorns. Very occasionally, by blind chance, he may find one, but he hasn't found one here.
     
  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I do not think one should, "interpretive translate,' that verse and not also translate the Greek word for body. Methinks somehow the word body to which our sins were carried up is important.

    BTW Where were those sins on the 15th, 16th,and 17th day after they were to his body about the ninth hour on the 14th? Still on his dead body? 1 Cor 15:12-17 Does not verse 17 imply those sins went away with the resurrection of the only one so resurrected, to date?

    Numbers 19:12
    Num 19:12 he doth cleanse himself for it on the third day, and on the seventh day he is clean; and if he cleanse not himself on the third day, then on the seventh day he is not clean.

    That says the same thing as 1 Cor 15:3,4 & 12-17

    he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings, --- That is when our sins were washed away in his blood

    Washing of regeneration.
    1 Peter 3:18 YLT because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in [to] the spirit,

    Rev 1:5 YLT and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,
     
  9. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Romans 5:14 YLT but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.
    1 John 4:2,3 in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is, and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already.
    1 Cor 15:45,46 so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam [is] for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

    Correct me if I am wrong however Jesus is the only one born of woman who has been raised in the manner spoken of, therefore all after the embolden but above, presently only applies to Jesus and will apply to those who are Christ's at his coming.

    Jesus Christ is stated as being the first-born out of the dead. Born of woman, natural [ψυχικόν - soulish] born out of the dead [πνευματικόν - spiritual - of Spirit]

    See post 27 also.

    Quickened yet to the to Spirit. Life giving Spirit.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The Greek word does not mean to carry, as a pack animal, thus "bore" is a mistranslation. The word means to remove, carry away. This is really basic.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    You are welcome to post your own "interpretative translation" of 1 Peter 2:4.

    Here again is mine: 1 Peter 2:24 (interpretive translation)
    Who Himself removed our sin's penalties by dying on the cross so you might come away from sin's penalties to living for righteousness, because you were healed by means of His sacrificial suffering.

    Now you think "body" refers to something other than physically dying on the cross. But I suspect you have no alternate understanding. I think "in His body" refers to His sacrifice of His physical bodies life, if the "body" of His death.
     
  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I can buy into your translation, interpretively, as long as it does not take away the fact of those sins being on the dead body on the 15th, 16th and at least most of the 17th day of the first month. That because of our justification by being delivered over to death, he was made alive in body, on the third day, thus washing away our sins in his blood wherein had been his life.

    For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:16-18

    John 14:19 yet a little, and the world doth no more behold me, and ye behold me, because I live, and ye shall live;

    Barns commentary
    Because I live - Though the Saviour was about to die, yet was he also about to be raised from the dead. [My add: So our sins could be washed away in his blood through washing of regeneration] He was to continue to live, and though absent from them, yet he would feel the same interest in their welfare as when he was with them on earth. This expression does not refer “particularly” to his “resurrection,” but his “continuing to live.” He had a nature which could not die. As Mediator also he would be raised and continue to live: and he would have both power and inclination to give them also life, to defend them, and bring them with him.

    Ye shall live also - This doubtless refers to their future life. And we learn from this:
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did I say our sins or our sin's penalties?

    Here again is mine: 1 Peter 2:24 (interpretive translation)
    Who Himself removed our sin's penalties by dying on the cross so you might come away from sin's penalties to be living for righteousness, because you were healed by means of His sacrificial suffering.

    This is such a basic and fundamental doctrine it is important to be sure you have understood it and either rejected it or accepted it.

    Christ provided the means of removing our sin's penalties, and the sin penalties for all of humanity, by dying of the cross. However, only when we were spiritually transferred into Christ and underwent the washing of regeneration were our specific sin penalties removed from us and taken out of the way.

    Tell me you understand the concept and whether you agree or disagree.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    2Co 5:17
    Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

    When do born anew believers become a new creation? When Christ died 2000 years ago or when the are "in (within) Christ?

    When are born anew believers regenerated, made alive? Before they are "together with Christ" or only when they have been transferred into Christ and thus are "together with Christ?"

    Thus the washing of regeneration, the removal of our sin's penalties occurs after we have been spiritually transferred into Christ.

    This is the basic truth that should not be beyond the grasp of everyone who calls on the name of the Lord.
     
  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I agree when we are given the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Adoption we are considered to be, in Christ, and [Romans 8:11 applies to us NKJV But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you] We are guaranteed to receive a glorified body as Christ received at his resurrection, when he comes again. Rom 8:17, Phil 3:20,21.

    In Christ. we become joint heirs with the One to have already inherited life, in a flesh body, eternal and incorruptible and will be born into that body at his coming.

    He the Son of the Living God, will at that moment, become the first-born among many brethren. Romans 8:29
     
  16. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    1 Cor 15:21 YLT for since through man [?Adam?] is the death, also through man [?Jesus the Christ?] is a rising again of the dead,
    1 Cor 15:22 YLT for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

    Is that or is that not, regeneration, of some fashion? Dead, made Alive. Relative to, the Christ, did that not take place in a three day period? Was the Christ, in body, dead for three days? Yes or No?

    1 Cor 15: 22,23 YLT for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be [X] made alive, and each in his proper order, [A] a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, then -- the end, when he may deliver up [M] the reign [N] to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --

    Matt 19:28 YLT And Jesus said to them, 'Verily I say to you, that ye who did [A] follow me, in [X] the regeneration, [M] when the Son of Man may sit upon a throne of his glory , shall sit -- ye also -- upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel;

    A + B = X in M

    Each in his proper order? What about [C] the rest of the dead?

    for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

    What about the tree of life and who has access to the tree of life? Where is the tree of life?

    A + B + C = N ?

    Second death? All of C or some of C
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sir, you did not even address the issue I put before you.
     
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