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Featured Creating Your Own God

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Oct 4, 2021.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    One of the tactics of false teachers is to make claims not based on specific statements contextually considered, but on undefined statements. For example, say I claim God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars. You say show me the evidence.

    I say "all things are possible with God." Then I attack, by saying by your denial that God did not put them in orbit, you are diminishing the divine attributes of God, and you deny God is sovereign and does as He pleases.

    Take, "No one seeks after God." Does this mean no one ever, at any time, while unregenerate seeks God? Nope. But if you offer a more limited meaning, based on context, then the false teaches say you are adding to scripture. Never mind they did, claiming their interpretation is what it says, and any other view adds to scripture.

    What is a way of finding the intended scope of "open ended" statements, rather than claiming everything imaginable is intended?

    Ask the question, What is the least that God could be stating. No one seeks God some of the time or at any time? Some of the time. The context of Romans 3 indicates the idea is when a person is sinning, they are not seeking God. Thus Paul uses the fact that we do not seek God all of the time to prove we are all under sin.

    There are many examples of the use of the bogus ploy, such as God would not destroy people in Gehenna because God is love. Overshooting the bounds of open ended statements can lead us into false doctrine. A sound bible study practice is to be a minimalists, being careful not to add to scripture by expanding the scope beyond its intent.
     
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  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Van, I am not trolling you, but your venting needed a bit of error correction.

    I will select a single point and show the error of your view.

    Here is the context of "No one seeks after God."
    9What then? are we better than they?
    No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
    10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
    14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
    15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
    16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
    17And the way of place have they not known:
    18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

    19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.​

    The writer of Romans is quoting the first part of Psalm 14.

    He is arguing that doing deeds of the law do not justify. It matters not if one is Jew by birth, though there is an advantage, that advantage does not extend to justification.

    Then how much less is estate do gentiles reside when they have not even the advantage of being given the oracles of God for safe keeping?

    Are we better than they?
    No, in no area, for both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin.
    There is none righteous, not even a single person.
    There is none that understand the Scriptures.
    There is none that seek after God....

    But, Van you discredit Scriptures when you attempt to present some liberty that the Scriptures do not allow. Then you attempt to make others seem less than factual.

    Perhaps you may want to edit the last comment from your post.

    Spiritual annihilation is a violation of the BB.

    People are not destroyed in Gehenna, but are tormented, forever, except for a single incident. Death and Hell give up the dead in them, and during the final Judgement, for that purpose the people are no longer suffering, but will when they are not found in the book of life and are cast into the Second death.

     
    #2 agedman, Oct 4, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Except Paul doesn’t just say “no one seeks God”. He says it in various ways at least 12 times in that passage. Over and over.

    Most people would conclude he is trying to make the point, “no one seeks God”.

    peace to you
     
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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The issue is does no one ever, at any time, seek God, as do the people of Matthew 23:13? The biblical answer is some people some of the time do seek God.
     
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  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 23:13 does not refute Romans. Nor does it give you permission to attempt to modify the Roman's statements.
     
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  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I think Paul’s point is no one seeks God absent God revealing Himself to them first. They respond to God.

    peace to you
     
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  7. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Active Member

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    Van would try to support his position by his unique
    translation' of Romans 3:11 : "There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God when sinning."
     
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  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I really didn't want to get into this with Van, again, but I felt compelled to make a post so that those who casually read the BB will be better informed.

    It is the purpose of this post to show as briefly and with clarity, as this old man can, how the use of Matthew 23 by Van is just in error.

    First: Matthew was written to the Jews from a Jewish perspective that folks of that heritage may understand that Christ is both King of Kings and The High Priest.

    If you read Matthew through gentile thinking, it certainly contains many great and marvelous things, however, there are pitfalls that one might fall into which are becoming more common, such as Preterism, and misalignment of passages such as Matthew 23 and following into representing what they never intended to be aligned.

    Read Matthew. Spend time pondering the record presented by this account. Search the Scriptures for balance, and do not be swayed into thinking that presents error.

    Second: One must understand that, for the Israeli, even to this day, the temple is the way to God. Why do they appeal to God at the retaining wall of the original Temple? Because that is as close as they can get at this time.

    To the Israeli, the one and only mediator is the Temple. In our modern age, where there is no central temple, the Israeli uses their local place of worship. And that holds the keys to the kingdom for them.

    Who rules the temple? The chief Rabi who is the direct descendent of Aaron, the first High Priest.

    Therefore it follows that if one runs afoul of the rules of the temple, they then have forfeited their only place to enter the Kingdom of God. To be a good Jew, you must also have good standing in the temple.

    So, how do you know for certain that what I posted is the truth?

    Look with Jewish concepts at the presentation, and if that is not possible read with understanding and I have underlined some key parts to help.

    Matthew 23 in part:
    1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples:
    2The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
    3So practice and observe everything they tell you.
    But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach
    .

    4They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
    5All their deeds are done for men to see.
    They broaden their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels.
    6They love the places of honor at banquets, the chief seats in the synagogues,
    7the greetings in the marketplaces, and the title of ‘Rabbi’ by which they are addressed.

    8But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.
    9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
    10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ.
    11The greatest among you shall be your servant.
    12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

    13Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
    You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces.
    You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter.
    15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
    You traverse land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of helld as you are.
    16Woe to you, blind guides!
    You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’
    17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes it sacred?
    18And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’
    19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes it sacred?
    20So then, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
    21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the One who dwells in it.
    22And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the One who sits on it.​


    So folks, where is the focus of the talk? Upon the religious rulers and their rule over the temple.

    Now, I trust that any who read will understand that NO UNBELIEVER or has the authority nor the power to seek or hinder the work of God. It just cannot be, for God has all authority, and the Christ holds the keys of life.

    The believer has both the authority and the power to seek and find the work of God, for that is the teaching of the Holy Spirit through the Christ. Did you see that in the above passage? ONE teacher and One way to enter the Kingdom.

    May God bring you understanding.

     
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  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Is it not sin when believers do not seek God?

    They don't have to be sinning to not seek God, by not seeking God have they not sinned?

    A person can be as the young ruler and keep the whole law from their youth, yet sin by not seeking God in the way God chooses.
     
  10. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Active Member

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    Speaking of Gehenna, i.e. fiery furnace, fiery lake, lake of burning sulfur, eternal fire, hell --do you still hold to a Conditional view of the fate of the damned?
     
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  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Here is what scripture says in Romans 3:

    10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Here is Van’s interpretation:

    That is posted in a thread Van started entitled “Creating your own God”

    I doubt he sees the irony.

    peace to you
     
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another "taint so" post, and bogus to boot as Romans agrees with the doctrine of Limited Spiritual Ability.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Not Paul's point (which is no one seeks God while sinning, thus we are all under sin) but true nevertheless, no one seeks God without God's general revelation, as His divine attributes are revealed in what He has made.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another "change the subject" to Van post. Looks like many Calvinists object to the idea of sticking to what the Bible actually teaches...
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another "taint so" post with no meat on those bones... How ironic...
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Questions:
    1) In order to read false doctrine into scripture, do you ignore other verses that conflict with your fictional doctrine? Yes
    2) In order to defend false doctrine, do you change the subject to claimed bad behavior of the messengers of truth. Yes
    3) Should we fear God because He can destroy both the body and soul in Gehenna? Yes
    4) Are the people entering the kingdom in Matthew 23:13 seeking God at that time? Yes
    5) Is expanding the scope and extent of open ended statements a what to pour false doctrine into scripture? Yes

    Our best approach to avoid accepting false doctrine is to study scripture and accept doctrine consistent with all scripture. Ask what is the least God is saying when evaluating open ended statements. Does God can destroy both body and soul mean God does destroy body and soul, instantaneously when people are tossed into the lake of fire? Nope. Only that God could if He chose, but the verse does not say He chooses to take that action. We need to read scripture carefully, prayerfully and thoughtfully.
     
  17. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Active Member

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    You called those of us who believe the Bible as "the eternal torment crowd" back on 12/7/14 and the next day. So do you still hold to the heresy of what you said on 3/15/11 "My position is there is no actual support in scripture for the doctrine of eternal torment."
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another change the subject to the behavior of the poster post. The topic of this thread is discerning truth instead of accepting false doctrine.

    Questions:
    1) In order to read false doctrine into scripture, do you ignore other verses that conflict with your fictional doctrine? Yes
    2) In order to defend false doctrine, do you change the subject to claimed bad behavior of the messengers of truth. Yes
    3) Should we fear God because He can destroy both the body and soul in Gehenna? Yes
    4) Are the people entering the kingdom in Matthew 23:13 seeking God at that time? Yes
    5) Is expanding the scope and extent of open ended statements necessary to pour false doctrine into scripture? Yes

    Our best approach to avoid accepting false doctrine is to study scripture and accept doctrine consistent with all scripture. Ask what is the least God is saying when evaluating open ended statements. Does God can destroy both body and soul mean God does destroy body and soul, instantaneously when people are tossed into the lake of fire? Nope. Only that God could if He chose, but the verse does not say He chooses to take that action. We need to read scripture carefully, prayerfully and thoughtfully.
     
  19. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Active Member

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    Yes, indeed. And one of the false doctrines being promulgated is that the condemned will not suffer eternal torment.
     
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  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Another tactic of false teachers is to make up their own unbiblical theology and then treat the Scripture as a sort of wax nose and pummel it into what they want it to say. So that, for example, 'There is no one who seeks after God' becomes, "There are not very many who seek after God," and to mangle verses like Matthew 23:13 wretchedly to support their position.
     
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