1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Cross or Pole?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by rlvaughn, Mar 13, 2021.

Top Posters
  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did Jesus die on a (t-shaped) cross or a straight pole?

    Does it matter?
     
    #1 rlvaughn, Mar 13, 2021
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,044
    Likes Received:
    1,241
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Personally I do not think it matters. It would seem that a "stake" with a cross peice is still called a "stake."
    Jesus' hands had nails plural. A JW drawing has one nail in Jesus' hands.
     
    #2 37818, Mar 13, 2021
  3. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Examples from one side (that it was not a cross, and does matter):
     
    #3 rlvaughn, Mar 13, 2021
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,573
    Likes Received:
    627
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It doesnt matter if it was a toothpick

    Tell that to a JW and watch their eyes light up.

    The issue is what did it accomplish ie the redemption of man
     
    #4 Marooncat79, Mar 13, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  5. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Also, the accusation was placed above his head - Matthew 27:37. Seems it would have been above his hands, if his hands were stretched upward above his head.
    Wow, even their own translation has nails plural: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.”
    I agree. (Well, maybe not a toothpick, might be a little too small. :eek: :)) If the shape of the object were so important, God probably would have made it more explicit in his word. One objection to the shape, it seems to me, derives from how the cross -- the shape of the cross -- has become a sort of inordinate object of worship to some folks. However, that can be addressed from the biblical teaching of worship without particularly addressing what shape it was. Some might make an inordinate object even if it were a toothpick!
    Jehovah's Witnesses seem to be one main group opposing calling it or seeing it as a cross. I think they consistently translate stauros as torture stake in their New World Translation - for example, Matthew 27:40 - and saying: “You who would throw down the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!” However, both the quotes I give above in post # 3 were from articles sent to me by a fellow Baptist who accepts the “cross of Tammuz” ideas. And one of the articles was written by a Baptist preacher I knew. I checked on the other one and found that guy was associated with the Church of God, Herbert W. Armstrong style.
    Yes, and I think that is the way it is addressed in verses like Galatians 6:14 and songs like “When I survey the wondrous cross.” Not the object itself, but the work of Christ on it.
     
    #5 rlvaughn, Mar 13, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2017
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How would the otherwise poignant fact that it was carried affect the various theories

    "Then [Jesus] called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: 'Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.'" –Mark 8:34
     
    #6 RighteousnessTemperance&, Mar 13, 2021
  7. Bassoonery

    Bassoonery Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2021
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    36
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your thread reminded me of Mike Winger's video on the subject which I have not yet got round to watching. I will start watching it now.

    Mike Winger is a Calvary Chapel pastor who has also done a lot of work studying how to witness to JW's. We might not agree with all of his theology but his thoughts are always extremely well-presented and well-researched.

     
    #7 Bassoonery, Mar 13, 2021
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,356
    Likes Received:
    1,776
    Faith:
    Baptist
    TDNT says that stauros is a vertical stake, and that may be the etymology. However, there is plenty of evidence that in the first century the Romans crucified on a a two piece cross, just like usually depicted. The skeleton has been discovered of a young man who was crucified in the first century, and it bears this out. See Roman Crucifixion Methods Reveal the History of Crucifixion.

    A. T. Robertson says, "There were various kinds of crosses and we do not know precisely the shape of the Cross on which Jesus was crucified, though probably the one usually presented is correct" (Word Pictures in the NT, entry on Matt. 27:32, accessed through PowerBible software). It is generally agreed that what Simon carried for Jesus was the crosspiece, although the word stauros is used in all three accounts.

    Further archaeological evidence: CrossOrigins

    I don't think we need to give in to the JW's in this. They've been wrong about so many other things! :D Of course, we wouldn't lose our faith if it actually happened to be just a stake, right?
     
    #8 John of Japan, Mar 17, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  9. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, I think those who insist it must be a pole or vertical stake because of the word stauros have fallen prey to an etymological fallacy.
     
    #9 rlvaughn, Mar 17, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,982
    Likes Received:
    2,615
    Faith:
    Baptist
    #10 Salty, Mar 18, 2021
  11. Stratton7

    Stratton7 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2020
    Messages:
    232
    Likes Received:
    23
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don’t think it does. If we focused so much on that then it’s possible to lose some focus on the bigger picture.
    However, it does spark my curiosity. I think that with a definitive answer, if it were a cross, then perhaps it could be used in showing another heresy of the NWT (doubt anymore are needed though!)
     
    #11 Stratton7, Mar 24, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...