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Crucifixion Happened ON Wednesday

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by antiaging, Dec 23, 2007.

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  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    GE

    And I for one, have not missed what you have said, Ed Sutton, nor do I disagree with you on the FACT!

    What - it seems to me - I disagree on with you, is that I understand you for promoting the idea Christ rose from the dead on a fourth day, and not "on the third day according to the Scriptures" of His having tasted and been dead.
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Ed Sutton,
    “..."firstfruits" occurring on 16 Nisan. There is no such "requirement" for this date, in the Scripture, although it would usually work in about six of every seven years ...”

    --- ‘no such "requirement" for this date, in the Scripture’ ---

    Browsing Lv23,
    (4)These are the Feasts ... in their seasons ... ‘Seasons’ (= chronology),

    (5)On the fourteenth of the First Month (Nisan / Abib) late (= afternoon) the LORD’s Passover (is slaughtered). [First ‘day’ of the ‘three days’.]

    (6)On the fifteenth day is the Feast (= Eating) of Unleavened Bread. [Second ‘day’ of ‘the three days’.]

    (7)In the first day (of seven of UB Eat) ye shall have an Convocation. (Hints at it being a ‘sabbath’.) Ye shall do no servile work. (‘Holy’ works OF THAT DAY to be done still.)

    Alright then; here (in verse 8 actually) the periscope ends, and the contextual sequence is interrupted – but only if one does not follow through the whole context. If taken into consideration the chiasm in the form of which the chapter is constructed, the historic setting in verses 9 to 11a is no new or irrelevant interruption, but serves as conjunction, parallel with the historic introduction of the chiasm in verses 1 to 4. So that 11b forms the parallel continuance of 7(-8). It is typical Hebrew prose!

    That 11b falls not from the air, but parallels 7(-8) is further clear from the use of the word ‘day’ and its explained setting within a certain relation of subsequent days. What prompted the writer to (suddenly) say “after ... the ... sabbath”? ‘After ...’ what? After the sabbath! After which sabbath? “After THE, sabbath” – the ‘sabbath’ concerned in the CONTEXT! Now which sabbath could that have been but the day of the “Convocation”?

    From inner witness therefore one must conclude Nisan 16 is meant, because the lamb was slain on Nisan 14 “in the afternoon”, and eaten “in the night after” which (later) became the beginning of Nisan 15 on the night of which the lamb was eaten. (Ex12:6/8) [On the change of Nisan 14 into one half remaining 14 Nisan and the other half becoming the first half of Nisan 15, see Book 1/1.] This too, is the only possible explanation of the calling Nisan 14 an Holy convocation in Ex12:16, but not in Lv23, where only Nisan 15 is deemed a ‘sabbath’ ... of ‘Convocation’.

    Therefore in Lv23:11b, “on the morrow after the sabbath” unmistakably means the day after Nisan 15. The concept is repeated in verse 15, where the Day of First Sheaf is counted the first of the Shavuot or ‘Pentecost’ – ‘Fifty Days’.

    In various other OT Scriptures you will find the very order confirmed, e.g., Joshua 5:10-11. See in Dt16:1-11 the immediate sequence of Passover until Pentecost without brake within the “seven weeks”.

    And finally the definitive date of the last day of UB: Nisan 21!

    There can be no mistaking “the day after the sabbath” of the Passover Feast, Nisan 15, without interruption “on the day after”, was followed with First Sheaf Wave Offering Day -- Nisan 16. Always “according to the Scriptures the third day” (1Cor15:5) – else it would be impossible to arrive at Nisan 21 within “seven weeks”!
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Thesis,
    “... only the "high-day Sabbath" of 15 Nisan/Abab that I believe to be referenced in Jn. 19:31 ...”

    Anti-thesis,
    No anti-thesis! I fully agree!
    Only aspect to make sure about is: Nisan 15 beginning, or, tradition: Nisan 15 ending?

    Beginning: How? Mk15:42 and Mt27:57 “It was ‘opsias’ already”, that is, after sunset! Only at this stage of night “it being late-of-evening(-after-sunset)”, “came Joseph”. In John 19:31: “Because / since it was Preparation having begun the Jews ...” (‘epei paraskeueh ehn’). (And other factors.) ... “and after this Joseph ...” So it was rather late in night already – in fact after the Jews have eateh Passover, otherwise they would not have entered in to Pilate!

    Third reason why Nisan 15 beginning: “That the bodies should not remain on the sabbath-day.”
    It would be most silly to ask to have the bodies removed after the day had virtually run out!

    So by now in the sequence of events of the second day of the first three days of Passover Season, the question is answered: Nisan 15 beginning!

     
  4. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    I see a lot of speculation, here, but few Scriptural specifics, frankly. Not to mention, you seem to want to "pick and choose" how and when you will define and apply "Sabbath". Plus, what is or is not "Biblical". You have previously written this in post #87:
    You do here correctly acknowledge that there is (or at least can be) a difference between "the Feast Sabbath" (15 Nisan) and "the weekly Sabbath". You also mention that they can occur on the same day, as well. I agree fully on both counts, that both are Biblically possible. Although I previously posted that the "day of the week" is incidental to the "date" on the calender. "That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!" :laugh:

    Seriously, this is undoubtedly correct, and the "high day" Sabbath can occur (and did about one year out of every seven) on the same day as the regular "weekly sabbath". It just did not happen to so occur during the Passion Week. Other Scriptures show this, including some I've posted.

    I do take exception to your contention of "defining" and concluding that "the definition of the specific 'Day of Preparation' involved, namely "the Fore-Sabbath"-'Preparation' which in no single source ever is used for another day than Friday, so there can be absolutely NO doubt Jesus was BURIED on Friday." (My emboldening to show your quote.) Sorry, that is still speculation, and not "Biblical", which you just got through addressing, above! :BangHead:

    (Although, when Jesus' body was actually entombed by Joseph and Nicodemus, and "sundown" is still only tangential, at most, to when the crucifixion occurred, with no bearing on "three days and three nights" or the other phrases, such as "in three days", "after three days", etc., defining this period of time, as it also has no bearing as to when the resurrection occurred. And since it keeps getting ignored, I may yet have to come back and post why the Lamb was 'taken' on "Palm Sunday", and killed 'Thursday', having to do with Jesus keeping the Sabbath.)

    We know exactly when the Lamb was to be 'taken' - 10 Nisan. (Ex. 12:3) We know from Exodus 12 and Lev. 23, exactly when the Lamb was to be killed - the day specifically identified as "Passover" on 14 Nisan "between the evenings". (Ex. 12:6; Lev. 23:5) I have posted to "between the evenings", as well, previously.

    This is certainly the same day spoken of and identified (correctly and colloquially, but not technically) as "the day of unleavened bread, when the Passover must be killed". (Ex. 12:6, 18; Lk. 22:7) This 14 Nisan is also identical to the Day of Preparation, spoken here, which had become another common name for "Passover" Day. (Mt. 26:17; 27:62; Mk. 14:12; 15:42; Lk. 22:8, 9; 23:54; Jn. 19:14, 31, 42)

    I'm not exactly sure that Mk. 15:42 can carry all the weight you are attempting to assign to it, however, for that verse merely says, in some various versions
    The word "prosabbaton" occurs only here in Scripture, in the NT. It is also a rendering in Judith, and perhaps once in Psalms, in the LXX, according to Thayer. He also gives a couple of extrabiblical references. This is hardly overwhelming support to your contention that it has to refer to Friday. I believe it refers here to Thursday and the "Feast Day" Sabbath, of 15 Nisan, and not the regular "weekly Sabbath", and that this is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Do you have some Scripture that shows this not to be the case, somehow?

    Finally, and I think I'm starting to repeat myself, time after time, in this, so plan to cut back on posting in this thread, I will have now asked four times for some Scripture that gives some evidence that the resurrection occurred on a "Sabbath". Yet you still make such allusions and/or implications. I have yet to see any Scripture saying this, though. Could it be because just maybe there is none, and that this is entirely "a theological construct"? I wonder.

    Ed
     
    #104 EdSutton, Dec 28, 2007
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  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Dear Ed,
    I really appreciate conversing with a young and inquisitive mind! The very subject we are discussing took me decades to unravel because I could not find support from anyone on this earth! I thought for years I was mad, so strange was it to myself. But I believe God allowed me no rest - and kept challenging me with the Scriptures! What at first triggered the inquiry was plain reading the Bible as differently and contradicting translated in Mk15:42. I asked myself one word, Why? And the answer I discovered was NOT PRETTY as regard man, but beuatiful and gratifying spiritually as regards to the rewards of Truth.

    One rule I vowed to keep by through the whole process was that I would not listen to myself in this matter, but to what the Church and great and good men of the Church had to say as far as possible with regard to it.
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Once again, if we could find finality on Mk15:42 / Mt27:57, we would have come a long way, and the easiest - by far not the most important or only! But at this point I think it important to mention that just as literal as Mk15:42 is to be taken, just as literal should Mt28:1.

    Now as pertains Mk15:42, you have quoted several translations, and one like "Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, (NKJV)" in every respect obeys the principle so that it is fully correct. Unfortunately in the English it can be ambiguous where it says "it WAS ...", because it was not Friday ending, but Friday beginning - which the English words can of course also mean, and in context should!
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Thesis,
    "I believe it refers here to Thursday and the "Feast Day" Sabbath, of 15 Nisan, and not the regular "weekly Sabbath", and that this is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Do you have some Scripture that shows this not to be the case, somehow?"

    Anti-thesis,

    You contend Jesus was crucified on Thursday; but you also contend He was crucified on Nisan 14, don't you? The OT gives no other date of month for the slaughter of the passover lamb. Was Jesus 'killed' on the sabbath of the Feast Nisan 15, or was he 'killed' on Nisan 14 - as all four Gospels unanamously agree was "on the Preparation of Passover" (Nisan 14); "on the day they had to / always slaugthered the passover (lamb)"; "on the day leaven had to be removed" - most clearly before the day upon which UB was eaten for the first time. It was a law disobeyed on penalty of death!
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    So no, I contend Thursday was the Preparation Day of the Passover (Jn19:14) - not its Feast Day called 'sabbath' in Lv23 and 'Great Day' in Jn19:31. Friday was a second 'day of preparation' that immediately followed on the Preparation of the Passover (Thursday). But Friday being the sabbath of the Passover Season, ALSO and of course, was the "Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath" - as your quoted Versions say.

    Herein appears a BIG difference in our respective views - you take one day for both death and burial; the Scriptures take TWO consecutive days for death (Nisan 14) and burial (Nisan 15).
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Thesis,
    ""I believe it refers here to Thursday and the "Feast Day" Sabbath, of 15 Nisan, and not the regular "weekly Sabbath","

    GE
    I also believe it does not refer to the weekly Sabbath! But I believe Jn19:14, Mk14:12/17, Mt26:17/20 and Lk22:7/14 refer to Thursday's evening-beginning (Wednesday after sunset) and 'Preparation of Passover' Nisan 14 (not the Sabbath!). The "Feast Day" Sabbath, 15 Nisan (Friday) began AFTER Jesus died and WHILE He still hung on the cross - Mk15:42, Mt27:57, Lk23:50, Jn19:31.
     
  10. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Ah 'on't get some of it!



    ES- Nope!!

    16 Nisan is never named, having to do with the feasts! In fact, the only occurrence of "sixteenth day of the first month" (Nisan) in Scripture, had to do with Hezekiah ordering the filth cleaned from the Temple in II Chronicles 29:17, where this was completed on the outer areas ("the vestibule of the LORD") on the 16th day of the first month. In fact, this is the only reference to the 16th day of any month found in Scripture, to my knowledge.

    Not sure of all you are driving at, but would note that Ex. 12:16 does not mention 14 Nisan, but refers to the seven day period of Nisan 15-21 inclusive, with the 1st and 7th days of this period being "holy convocations", where the only thing one was allowed to do was prepare food. (Ex. 12:16)
    I'm not exactly sure what you are attempting to say with all the rest of this, either, frankly, except for drawing a conclusion for 16 Nisan. And I would also note that Deut. 16 does not name dates, beyond 15 Nisan, either, for the period through Pentecost, just as Lev. 23 does not. Why? One reason is what I have already stated. [BTW, the days of harvesting the grain (and the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf) could not have started on 16 Nisan when that date fell on a regular weekly Sabbath.] A second reason is that the Hebrew calender underwent a periodic "update" with the periodic insertion of "an added extra month" (Second Adar) about once every three years, or so, to keep the lunar calender on a more or less even keel with the solar Calender. Twelve 29-30 day lunar months totalling about 355 days simply do not ~365 1/4 days make! Or in other words, the Hebrew calender has a built in error of about 10 days every year, without correction. (That does not affect the calculation of Pentecost, however, but is merely added for information.) There are always two potential "dates" for Pentecost, depending upon the year, but it was always exactly ("count") 50 days after "first-fruits". Probably why, like "first-fruits", there is no particular date assigned to it, for both can and do "move", unlike "Passover" (14 Nisan), "Feast of unleavened bread" (15 Nisan), "Trumpets" (1 Tishri), "Day of Atonement" (10 Tishri) and "Tabernacles" (beginning on 15 Tishri).

    But I would once again note that the seven days of Unleavened bread are Nisan 15 through Nisan 21, inclusive. That is 7 days.

    Try it by counting on your fingers. (Batteries do sometimes conk out in our calculators, you know!)

    You'll see this. Nisan 14 through Nisan 21 is 8 days.

    Also how (or why) exactly does one "arrive at Nisan 21 within "seven weeks"!", to begin with? From when?? For why??

    Ed
     
    #110 EdSutton, Dec 28, 2007
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  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Ed Sutton,
    "I previously posted that the "day of the week" is incidental to the "date" on the calender. "That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!" "

    GE
    The same has also been my story!
     
  12. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Outta' curiosity, have you ever heard the humorous song about that?? It's when a guy gets 'busted' by his girlfriend (or wife) after making up a story to tell her.

    Have a chuckle!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quAbyTTPUtc

    Ed
     
    #112 EdSutton, Dec 28, 2007
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  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Ja, and the fish that got away was the emptier the bottles, the bigger in size!
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Ed Sutton,
    " the "high day" Sabbath can occur (and did about one year out of every seven) on the same day as the regular "weekly sabbath". It just did not happen to so occur during the Passion Week. Other Scriptures show this, including some I've posted."

    GE
    This to me cannot be particularly important, but nevertheless interests me, that how do you arrive at this deducement (I wouldn't call it a 'conclusion')?

    What I have noticed from many theories about our subject , is how many times in 'statistics' co-incidences of 14th Nisan there are on Thursday! It's unbelievable, even so obvious one could be pardoned for not taking everything trustworthy. Nevertheless it was a noticeable imbalance in all the calendars I have seen.
     
  15. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Well, all except the one that Jonah told about that "got away"!

    He, unlike many, didn't need any empty bottles! [​IMG]

    Or even a 'buddy'! [​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Ed
     
    #115 EdSutton, Dec 28, 2007
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  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    And one notices the fishes-of-lies getting bigger and bigger the more of recent gender the fishermen are!
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Yes, and this time it wasn't the fish that got away, but the fisherman of the souls of Nineveh. (Could you believe it, I didn't know how to spell Nineveh and couldn't find Jonah to find out how - I had to look in the index!
     
  18. EdSutton

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    I "deduce" this because the only length of "years" that are evenly divisible by 7, hence making the dates of suceeding years fall on the same day of the week, are years of 350 day, 357 day and 364 day, duration. None of these 'fit' the Hebrew calender. Hence the "date' moves from year to year. It is apparently occasionally possible to add a second Adar of 30 days to the 355 day calender, making the Jewish 'Leap year' 385 days in length, with the rare result that two years back to back could be on the same day of the week. But it would be extremely rare, and would never repeat identically more than two years in a row.

    One can "add" this 'Second Adar' purposely, and a bit out of sequence, in order to keep Passover from falling on certain days of the week, I guess, as there are normally about 6 or 7 added months in a 'given' 19 year cycle, from what I've read. I do not know exactly how the rabbis would do the calculating. I just know that the solar vs. lunar shortfall of about 10 1/4 days amounts to about one month every three years, and inserting a 29 or 30 day month (not sure exactly which) about once every three years is necessary to keep the calender current with the sun, moon, and equinox.

    Although I suspect (but can't prove) the influence of the liturgical calender of the organized church, expecially the liturgical calender of the Roman Catholic church, has a subtle influence on the Jewish calender. That would be interesting to find out, I'd say.

    Ed
     
    #118 EdSutton, Dec 28, 2007
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  19. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    That's all right! :thumbs:

    The important thing is that the fish found him - the most obnoxious selfish bigot in history!
    Even the fish couldn't 'stomach him' for long! [​IMG]

    Yet he is the greatest preacher in history!
    An eight word sermon,
    preached from a street corner,
    by one who hated his audience,
    and didn't want to be preaching in the first place,
    only did it to save his own neck,
    and then decided he'd made a mistake,
    and wished he were dead,
    rather than see "those kind of people" converted!

    And the whole city was converted, much to Jonah's dismay, sparing it God's destruction, at that time.

    I'm not a preacher, but I have a message on Jonah that I could give occasionally, expanding on this.

    Ed
     
    #119 EdSutton, Dec 28, 2007
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  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Ed Sutton,
    " I may yet have to come back and post why the Lamb was 'taken' on "Palm Sunday", and killed 'Thursday', having to do with Jesus keeping the Sabbath.)"

    GE

    No, I'm not 'keeping ignoring it!' One thing at a time - there are many!

    As I have said before, I take Jesus our Passover Lamb as the Rule, even of the 'OT' Passover. If the OT says the lamb should be "separated" on Nisan 10, then it is because it would be, and was, the case in the case of Jesus Christ. (That is 'my eschatology' I don't ask you to accept for your own. God's will shall be.) Seen posteriorly from this point of view (if you can take what I say), the Passover Lamb had been 'taken' or 'separated' Nisan 10. Nisan 14 He had to be slaughtered; Nisan 15 buried, Nisan 16 raised.
    So, take Friday the "Fore-Sabbath" - which we are told in so many words was the day on which the Lamb was buried, Friday must have been Niasn 15.

    Thursday must have been Nisan 14, "Day before the Passover Feast" (Jn13:1) on which the Lamb was slaughtered;

    On Wednesday (Nisan 13) it had to have been said, "two days ... the Feast (sabbath)", Mk14:1;

    On Tuesday (Nisan 12) it had to have been said, "two days ... crucified (Preparation of Passover)", Mt26:2;

    Monday (Nisan 11) Mk11:12, "the next day" ... since ...

    Sunday (Nisan 10) Jn12:12, "the next day" 'Palm Sunday' ... since ...

    Saturday (Nisan 9) Jn12:1, "where Lazarus stayed ... lunch" ... since ... "Six days before the Feast Day" (Nisan 15)!

    Friday (Nisan 8) Jn12:12 arrival in Bethany




    "Why the Lamb (Jesus) was 'taken' on
     
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