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Crucifixion: Thursday or Friday? continued...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Jim H., Feb 9, 2003.

  1. Jim H.

    Jim H. New Member

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    Hi all. I'm new here, but I gotta tell you; this looks like my kind of place! I've been looking for a forum that is not afraid to look deeply into doctrinal issues. I'm not the kind of person who is content to just accept cliches and go on. I want to know!
    Well, I just can't pass up commenting on this subject of the day of the crucifixion.It's something that I've studied in depth, and I want to point out a few things. I decided to start a new thread with this post, because the other one was getting kinda long.
    Caretaker pasted some points out of a text he had downloaded that I want to take issue with. Here's part of it...

    In Luke 24:21, we see an accounting of two men walking to Emmaus lamenting on the events that had transpired.
    Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

    Now, this event is written to have taken place on the first day of the week. No dispute there. What we DO need to question however; is what they are referring to as the things that were done.

    A cursory review of Matthew 27:61-66 shows us the completion of these "things" to be completed. "These things" included all the events pertaining to the resurrection - the seizing of Christ, delivering Him to be tried, the actual crucifixion, and, finally the setting of the seal and the watch over the tomb the following day, or Thursday.

    Sunday being the 3rd day from Thursday further supports the fact that Christ was not crucified on a Friday.


    Note very carefully here the twist put on this passage. The writer of this peice poses the question "what things", and then invents his own answer, and futher, uses the invented answer as proof of his conclusion. Let's take a careful look at the text and see if it answers the question "what things"...

    Luk 24:17-21 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? (18) And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? (19) And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: (20) And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. (21) But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

    So, you see? The text itself answers the question; specifically. The "these things" refer to Jesus being handed over to the chief preist and crucified. Sunday was the third day since that had happened.

    I gotta tell you, Caretaker, I've read some of your post and I really like your depth of insight. Your post on the problems of catholicism was brilliant. But you really have to be careful of material garnered off of the 'net. I read some more of this particular paper that you posted on the same thread and I recognized it. It is a paper written by a member of the "cult", or "sect" or what ever you want to call it of the organization started by Herbert W. Armstrong. A Wednesday crucifiction is one of their dogmatic doctrines that, they say, proves the "apostate condition" of "protestants". Other doctrines that they affirm are; denial of the Trinity, belief in annialation of the wicked at judgement (as well as "soul sleep"), denial of the doctrine of the new birth, belief that man's destiny is to be "God as God is God", belief that America and England are literally the tribes of Ephriam and Mannasseh, belief in a world created and destroyed before this one, and many other unusual, and sometimes blasphemous doctrines.

    But now I want to deal with the question "what day?" One way to narrow it down is to look at the possible years for crucifixtion. They are -
    A.D.30 - Passover fell on Friday
    A.D.31 - Passover fell on Wednesday
    A.D.32 - Passover fell on Sunday or Monday
    A.D.33 - Passover fell on Friday

    There's your choices. We can instantly dispatch with A.D.32. That leaves 2 Fridays and a Wednesday. Here's some reasons that A.D.31, Wednesday, won't work.
    In the typology of the Passover, Christ's Triumphal entry coincides with the setting aside of the passover lamb. That was to occur on the 10th of Nissan, 4 days before Passover. If Passover fell on Wednesday, then the 10th would have been on Saturday. A Saturday triumphal entry is untenable. It would have Christ breaking the Mosaic law by riding on an animal (Duet. 5:14) and causing others to break the law by having them cutting down branches (Duet. 5:14; Num. 15:32-36). We know for a fact that Christ never broke any law from the Old Testament - to do so would be sin; something He never did. Nor did He cause anyone else to break the law.
    Another reason a Wednesday crucifixion will not work is this. Christ had to rise the third day. If you count Wednesday as one of the days, then He arose on Friday. If you start the count on Thursday, then He arose on Saturday. Neither will work. He had to rise on Sunday. Here's why. John 5:39 Jesus said that the Old Testament scriptures testified of Him. Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
    The Old Testament feast days, Sabbaths, cerimonial laws and all were "shadows" of the reality of the coming Christ. He had to fulfill every one of them to a "T".
    We know about Passover on Nissan 14. We know about the feast of unleavened bread that ran for seven days starting on the 15th of Nissan. But have you ever heard of the feast of "early firstfuits"? Here's the scoop from Leviticus...

    Lev 23:5-11 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. (6) And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. (7) In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. (8) But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. (9) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, (10) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: (11) And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

    The feast of Early Firstfuits, also known as Sfirat Haomer, and sometimes called Yom HaBikkurim, was to take place on the day after the Sabbath after Passover; ie Sunday. Every year. And here's the next bit of instructions from Leviticus...

    Lev 23:15-16 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: (16) Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

    50 Days from the Feast of Early Firstfruits, starting on Sunday, was the day of Pentecost. We all know how the day of Pentecost was fulfilled. So, why did Christ have to be raised on the day of the Early Firstfruits? Look at this...

    1Co 15:20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    Christ is the "Firstfruits" of the harvest. Because He is the "Early Firstfruits" of the harvest, He is a promise, a rock-ribbed certainty of the future final harvest. Because He was raised from the dead as the "Early Firstfuits", we can rest assured that we who belong to Him will be raised from the dead as the "Later Firstfruits".
    Christ had to be raised from the dead on Sunday. No way around it.

    Now, since A.D.31 & 32 are not possible, which of the following two dates is it? (A.D. 30 or 33?) We can determine that from scripture, too.
    There is almost universal agreement that the length of Christ's ministry was 3 1/2 years long. Christ's ministry started shortly after John the Baptist. (By the way; that's a good reason to be a Baptist; John was one! [​IMG] ) When did John's start?

    Luk 3:1-3 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene, (2) Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. (3) And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

    Do we know when Tiberius Caesar's 15th year was? Yes. It ran from Aug. 19, A.D.28 to Aug. 18, A.D.29. Since John started sometime during that year, and Christ started sometime after him, add a 3 1/2 year ministry for Christ to that date, and what do you get? A.D. 33.
    Another way to show this is to reckon from Daniel's prophecy of the 69 weeks. I'll try to be brief here, because I'm getting sleepy. But I'll try to spell it out to where it can be followed.

    Dan 9:24-26 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    So, from the going forth of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem to Messiah the Prince would be 69 weeks. This is, of course, 69 weeks of years. So, 7 years in a week times 69 weeks is 483 years. So, how long is a year? According to Dan. 9:27, for the 70th week, a covenant will be confirmed for one week and will be broken in the middle of the week. This is the "time, times and a half a time" in Dan. 7:25. In Revelation 12:14, John uses the same terminology. In the same chapter, John also says that it will be for 1,260 days. (12:6) In Rev. 11:2, the period of time is listed as "forty two months". So we see that the prophecy of the 70 weeks is useing what's called the "prophetic year", meaning 360 days in a year. (1,260 days divided into 42 months = 30 days per month; thus 1 year =360 days.)
    So, when did the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem go forth?

    Neh 2:1-5 And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence. (2) Wherefore the king said unto me, Why is thy countenance sad, seeing thou art not sick? this is nothing else but sorrow of heart. Then I was very sore afraid, (3) And said unto the king, Let the king live for ever: why should not my countenance be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchres, lieth waste, and the gates thereof are consumed with fire? (4) Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven. (5) And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.

    The 20th year of Artaxerxes was 444B.C. So, Nissan 1, (March 5th) 444B.C. is the starting point. So, multiply 69 weeks times 7 years times 360 days gives a total of 173,880 days. The difference between 444B.C. and 33A.D. is 476 solar years. A solar year is 365.24219879, days long. So, multiplying the 476 solar years times 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes,45.975 seconds, comes to 173,855 days, 6 hours, 52 minutes, 44 seconds. This is 25 days short of the 173,880 days in the prophecy, and is March 5th, A.D. 33. Adding the other 25 days of the prophesy of Daniel comes to March 30, (Nissan 10) A.D.33. This is the date of the Triumphal entry of Christ; on the day that the Passover lamb was to be set aside. Daniel's prophecy is accurate to the very day.

    Now, I never came up with the figures above by myself, I'm not nearly smart enough to do that. You can study it more in-depth by reading "Chronological Aspects Of The Life Of Christ", by Harold W. Hoehner.
    But, I think I have made the case that Christ was crucified on Friday, Nissan 14, A.D.33. So, there's still the question; "what did Jesus mean when He said He would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth?" If we let scripture interpret scripture, and we cross-reference the Gospels, we can get a clear picture of what He meant.

    Those that say that the crucifixion was on Wednesday say that the "sign of Jonah" was a literal 72 hour period of time. That an interment of exactly 72 hours would be the "proof", the only sign that the unbelieving Pharisees would get. A cursory look at parallel accounts in scripture quickly dispatches with that view.

    Luk 11:29-30 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. (30) For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

    If a literal 72 hour period was the test, the sign, apparently Luke knew nothing about it. No mention here of a 72 hour period. Next...

    Joh 2:18-21 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? (19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

    This is a totally different occasion, different people, but same question. If 3 days and 3 nights - a literal 72 hours - is the test, then Jesus forgot to tell these folks. No mention of 72 hours here.
    Next, let's look at these parallel verses...
    Mark 8:31 "after three days rise again." Matt. 16:31 "on the third day be raised."
    Mark 9:31 "after three days He will rise." Matt. 17:23 "He will be raised on the third day."
    Mark 10:34 "after three days He will rise." Matt. 20:19 "He will be raised on the third day."

    It is as clear as can be that "on the third day" is the same thing as " after three days".
    Some Old Testament examples of this "Hebrew idiom" are, Gen. 42:17-18, 1Kings 20:29, 2Chron. 10:5; 10:12, 1Sam. 30:12-13.

    Samuele Bacchiocchi, in his book "The Time of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection" states this about "the sign of Jonah"...

    "A third reason is provided by the early Christians' pictoral representation of the sign of Jonah. In numerous frescos of the catacombs, Christ's Resurrection is symbolically represented as Jonah being spewed out by the whale. In fact, the scene of Jonah (known as "Jonah's cycle" because it consist of different scenes) is perhaps the most common symbolic representation of Christ's Resurrection.
    The catacombs indicate, then, that early Christians identified the sign of Jonah with the event of the Resurrection and not with it's time element."


    In fact, the event of the resurrection; not the time element; can be proved by this...

    Rom 1:3-4 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (4) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    The resurrection from the dead is what "declared Him to be the Son of God with power", not a 72 hour time frame.

    Finally, about A.D.100 there was a Rabbi named Eleazar ben Azariah who was 10th in the descent from Ezra, and he said this...

    "A day and night are an Onah ['a portion of time'] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it". (Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath ix. 3)

    So we can see that Matt. 12:40 is nothing more than a Hebrew idiom, a figure of speech.

    Well. that's about all of the typing I have in my fingers for now, so 'til next time, God bless.
    Jim.
     
  2. mountainrun

    mountainrun New Member

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    Good stuff, Jim. Although I have a Sept. 14 start date for Tiberius.
    I had also noted the First Fruits aspect but did not think it I could prove a Sunday resurrection with it until I saw the Pentecost aspect you posted.
    There is also the fact the early Christians appear to have instituted Sunday worship in
    Acts 20:7 and 1st Cor. 16:2.

    Welcome to the board.

    MR


    MR
     
  3. Caretaker

    Caretaker <img src= /drew.gif>

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    Dear Brother Jim H;

    I deeply appreciate your indepth response and your precious heart for Christ, and the glorys of His awesome Word. You make a superb case, with strong basis in the over-all heresy of the Armstrongians, and their abherence to the Wednesday crucifixion, the need for the 6-day period of examination of the Passover lambs, and the violation of the Law if Christ rode into Jerusalem on the Sabbath, and if the people cut dowm palm branches on the Sabbath.

    I am pressed for time, and I will re-study your post in detail again later. Let me just make a few brief points.

    1) In my initial post, I reiterated that I had had the information for some time in my Word file. It originated from a Christian BB, a year or so ago, and I have been unable to find a link or source the material. If you could provide a link to the specific source it would be appreciated.

    2) I was unaware that H.W. Armstrong taught this, but was aware that his followers teach replacement theology, soul death, etc. My research into the Wed. date of Nisson 14, was in reference to Messianic Jewish sites, for my goal has been to examine the Passover/Crucifixion from a Jewish perspective, to seek as much accuracy as possible.

    3) It is most important to keep the Jewish day in perspective, dusk to dusk, rather than midnight to midnight.

    4) It would have been a violation of the Sabbath for Jesus to have rode into Jerusalem, or the people to cut palm branches, between sunset on Friday Nissan 9 and sunset on Saturday Nissan 10. One chronology places the triumphant entry into Jerusalem in the afternoon of Nissan 9, and the subsequent entry by Jesus into and the purging of the Temple, after sunset which would have been the start of Nissan 10, and the same day as the presentation of the Passover lambs.

    It behooves us to keep in mind that the journey from Bethany to Jerusalem was within the Sabbath parameters.


    http://www.srr.axbridge.org.uk/chron_4g.html


    Chronology of the Crucifiction

    Matthew 16 v 13 Jesus sets out way up north near Caesarea Philipii, (25 miles north of Capernaum). Caesarea Philipi was founded, (prob. early) during Tiberias' reign by Philip the Tetrarch near the source of the river Jordan, Jos. BJ p138.

    Matthew 16 v 21 Jesus announces that he is going to Jerusalem.

    Matthew 16 v 21b He says: 'On the third day to be raised.'

    Matthew 17 v 1 After six days Jesus ascends a mountain, (Mt. Hermon?) with a few disciples and is transfigured.

    Matthew 17 v 22 Walking through Galilee & says 'On the third day he will be raised,

    Mark 9 v 31 Passing through Galilee, Jesus tells His disciples that He would be killed and rise again 'after three days'.

    Matthew 17 v 24 Mark 9 v 33 Jesus enters Capernaum.

    Matthew 19 v 1 Mark 10 v 1 . Jesus leaves Galilee and crosses the Jordan heading south

    Matthew 20 v 19 Mark 10 v 32b - 34 'On the third day, he will be raised.'

    Matthew 20 v 29 Mark 10 v 46 Jesus leaves Jerico, (lunchtime, 7th Nisan?) and heads for Jerusalem, (12 miles).

    John 12 v 1 Jesus arrives at Bethany, 6 days before Passover, 8th Nisan, evening, just after sunset. Stays 1.5 days.

    John 12 v 9 - 11 Chief priests plot to kill Lazarus as well as Jesus, daytime, 8th Nisan.

    John 12 v 12 Crowds of festival goers hear that Jesus will enter Jerusalem, daytime, 9th Nisan.

    Mark 11 v 1 Jesus starts out from Bethany to enter Jerusalem on the colt.

    John 12 v 13 - 19 Jesus starts his procession into Jerusalem, afternoon, 9th Nisan.

    Matthew 21 v 10 Jesus enters Jerusalem at sunset and cleanses the Temple, late evening the start of 10th Nisan, regular Sabbath day, (Saturday). Exodus 12 v 3 - 10th Nisan was the day that the Lamb entered the house.

    Matthew 21 v 17 Mark 11 v 11 He entered at 'the hour' and looked round because it was late. At nightfall, start of 10th Nisan, Jesus leaves the Temple and lodges in Bethany.

    Matthew 21 v 18 Jesus travels from Bethany into Jerusalem, early morning, 10th Nissan.

    Matthew 21 v 19 - 22 Mark 11 v 12 - 14 Jesus curses the fig tree on his way into Jerusalem, early morning 10th Nisan.


    The burial before sundown on Wed. and the resurrection after sundown on Saturday,(which is the beginning of the first day of the week, seems far more consistant with three days and three nights in the ground.

    Let me reiterate that in NO way do I support the heresy of the WWCOG, and the teachings of HW Armstrong. If I had not found the Wednesday concept among Messianic Jews, and other believers, then I would also have been more inclined to a Friday date.

    Brother I am absolutely open to any dialogue, and discussion, and praise God it is the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ which is the absolute imperative, rather than our interpretaion and conjecture upon the day of His sacrifice for His children.

    God bless you my Brother in Christ.

    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  4. The_Narrow_Road

    The_Narrow_Road New Member

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    I personally agree with Caretaker. We have the Roman Catholic religion to thank for the "Good Friday" teaching. Yet, it doesn't add up to three days in the tomb as prophesied in the Old and New Testaments.
     
  5. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    ATTENTION: It is better to let a thread grow longer than to create an identical thread on the same subject, This lends to confusion. Now we will have to archive the other thread sooner rather than later to save that confusion.

    Cheers, and thank you, in advance,

    Jim,

    Moderator
     
  6. Jim H.

    Jim H. New Member

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    Hey, Moderator Jim. My apologies for starting another thread. I was on another forum some time ago and it was a common practice to start another thread when one became too long. Oddly enough, the reason they said that they did this was to "make it less confusing". Go figure, huh? Anyway, bear with me and I'll learn, in time.

    Hey my freind Drew. I read this from your second post on the original thread...

    I am not saying that Sunday worship or Easter observance is wrong, all I have attempted to do here is give the scriptural accounting of the events up to and after the death of Jesus to His resurrection and the history of the Church traditions.

    Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    I think this is part of the document you pasted? If it is, then I retract what I said about it being written by a follower of Armstrong. They most certainly do say that "Sunday worship and Easter observance is wrong." I don't have the paper that I was refering to, I threw it away. However, the part about the Disciples on the road to Emmaus read, as best as I can remember, word - for - word like the paper I had from a follower of Armstrong. Perhaps the writer of your paper borrowed from the writer of my paper? Or the other way around? Anyway, it doesn't matter.
    You seem to be aware of the teachings of Armstrongism, and that was my only concern. I have a relative who I care about deeply who is wound up with that bunch, and it is frustrating to see him swallow the most absurd teachings on a daily basis, and then turn around and defend them dogmaticlly. In fact, I knew nothing about them at the start, and was almost sucked into their doctrine by their "3 days and 3 nights" argument. That doctrine is used to gain a foothold with a person and begin to drive a wedge between them and their local church.
    The thing that tipped me off at that early time was the "road to Emmaus" passage. After being presented with the exact same scenario as that one in your post, I realized that their interpretation of that passage was not true to scripture. After I pointed it out to my "teacher", instead of openly looking at the passage in question, I got angry dogmatism. Basically, "shut up and believe what you're told." So, I started my own in-depth study of the issue, and began to see what I think are inconsistancies with the doctrine. That's all I'm trying to point out. I personally couldn't care less what day He arose, I'm just glad He did. However, He did rise on a particular day, and I think we can know what day that is if we diligently apply hermeneutics, - a "line upon line, percept upon precept" approach to the scriptures.
    The Narrow Road posted...
    We have the Roman Catholic religion to thank for the "Good Friday" teaching.
    Well, my freind, that is the question. Do we have the RC to thank? Or do we have it because it's Biblical?
    God bless,
    Jim
     
  7. mountainrun

    mountainrun New Member

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    Quote from Jim--
    ============
    Do we know when Tiberius Caesar's 15th year was? Yes. It ran from Aug. 19, A.D.28 to Aug. 18, A.D.29. Since John started sometime during that year, and Christ started sometime after him, add a 3 1/2 year ministry for Christ to that date, and what do you get? A.D. 33.
    =============

    A thought in support of your dating. Since a man did not begin his ministry until the age of 30, it is safe to assume John followed this practice, beginning his ministry in A.D. 28-29. We know that Jesus was 6 months younger than John so probably began His ministry six months after John. It was at least 40 days later due to the time he spent being tempted in the wilderness. Jesus would certainly not delay any longer than required.
    With a four-year total including Jesus' 3 1/2 year ministry, this puts us squarely in A.D. 32-33
    August to August. As easter does not fall in the latter part of the year, this narrows the year to A.D. 33 exclusively, when the Passover fell on Friday.

    Again though, I hardly think it matters in regard to doctrine as it is certain that Jesus fulfilled all that is necessary on the required days.
    It is interesting and fun to hash it all out though, and debate certainly leads to study.

    MR
     
  8. Caretaker

    Caretaker <img src= /drew.gif>

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    Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ;

    For myself I do not think I can add much more to the discussion, for we seem to have covered most of the basics of Friday vs. Thurs./Wed. crucifixion, and to expand we enter more and more into the realm of conjecture and interpretation.

    Here is one more site with their interpretation of "days and nights", with a Wed. crucifixion, and a comparison with the 40 days and 40 nights phrase:

    http://www.bibarch.com/CP/CP--The-Crucifixion.htm

    The rule is unmistakable, whenever the expression "day and night" or "night and day" appear together in the Hebrew Scriptures the period is never less than a full 24-hour day. This Hebrew idiom, appearing throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and in the New Testament, never meant anything less than a full day. When Matthew, who wrote to a first-century Judeo-Christian readership, stated that Jesus "fasted forty days and forty nights" (Matthew 4:2) he followed this practice thereby making it apparent to his early first-century Hebrew readers that he did not mean simply forty days (which could have included two partial days) but forty full or complete days.

    A basic rule in biblical exegesis is that a Scripture cannot mean (above all thousands of years after its original writing) what it never meant to its writer and intended readers. If we want to grow in grace and knowledge then we need read the scriptures in this context.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    There is both Biblical and historical support for BOTH sides of the discussion, and for myself I won't condemn nor reject either a Friday crucifixion, nor an earlier midweek crucifixion, for meritorious evidence is on both sides.

    1) I feel that we can all agree that Jesus arose on the first day of the week. In the Wednesday crucifixion, which places the resurrection after sundown Saturday, according to Jewish time-keeping this IS the first day of the week.

    Praise the Lord!!! The tomb IS empty, and our Lord is not here but HAS risen!!

    Sunrise services, gathering early the first day of the week to praise and worship our great God, and the RISEN Savior, I say AMEN!!!!!

    Anytime we gather to worship our risen King, Sun. through Sat. I say AMEN, for Jesus is our Sabbath, and praise the Lord the tomb IS empty.

    2) Brother JimH makes a strong case with Luke 24:21, and this is the third day since all this happened. This is a strong point in a post-Wednesday crucifixion. The interpretation is absolutely dependent upon the specific timing of "day",(dusk to dusk, midnight to midnight).

    My goal as always is to seek His awesome Word, and as great an understanding as is possible in this old flawed and so imperfect fellow out here in the Flinthills of Kansas.

    For myself I will seek to understand our Passover Lamb of God, within the context of the Jewish Passover, the time of God's greatest sacrifice for His children. After almost 2000 years,the words of the angel reverberate through our hearts and stir our very soul, "Ye seek after Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: He is risen;He is not here:behold the place where they laid Him."

    In the words of Thomas we kneel down and say,"My Lord and my God."


    May God so bless His precious children.

    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  9. mountainrun

    mountainrun New Member

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    Caretaker, I just took note that you are in error about the time of day of Jesus death also.
    He died at the 9th hour which was 3 in the afternoon according to everything I have read.

    Josephus said that lamb must be slaughtered between the ninth and 11th hours on Passover which is from 3:00 to 5:00 p.m.

    This would mean that, according to your 72 hour requirement, Jesus was resurrected on Saturday afternoon.

    The Hebrew word tranlsated as "twilight" in Exodus means "between the evenings." Not after sundown.

    I don't mean to drag out the thread after it seems to have run its course, but I was wondering how you arrived at a post sundown death.

    MR
     
  10. Jim H.

    Jim H. New Member

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    Hello my friend Caretaker. I agree with you that a point can be reached in a disscussion to where all that's left to do is speculate and guess. This particular topic is a many faceted one with a lot of different aspects to it. It seems to me that if a person believes the Friday - Sunday time frame, there's only one verse that has to be answered, Matt. 12:40. But, a Wednesday - Sunday time frame brings up a whole host of passages that must be addressed. Speaking for myself, after a long time studying it, I'm personally convinced that the Friday - Sunday time frame is accurate. But, I'm not God, and only He has perfect knowledge! I hope to sit at His feet with you and let Him explain it to us one day! Sound good to you?
    You posted...

    My goal as always is to seek His awesome Word, and as great an understanding as is possible in this old flawed and so imperfect fellow out here in the Flinthills of Kansas.

    I could tell that was true about you when I first visited this forum and read your posts. We share a common goal, my friend.

    You posted a link to the BibArch site and brought up the point that every time nights is added to the time reference in the Bible, it signifies a literal 24 hour period. I've heard this advanced before, and as far as I know, there's nothing in scripture that would dispute it. I have no idea if there's anything in the extra-biblical Jewish writings that might.
    Interestingly, though, the BibArch site is a site started by people affiliated with The World Wide Church of God; the old Herbert W. Armstrong church. If you'll go to their homepage and click on "Our history and purpose", and scroll down to the bottom, you'll see people who they thank for their help and influence. H.W. Armstrong, Joseph Tkach, Roderick Meridith and others are listed. But let me quickly add, after Armstrong's death, a radical change took place in that cult, and today, the WCOG is a real Christian church. It's the splinter groups that broke off during the transformation that bear close watching. In fact, I recommend the World Wide Church of God home page for some in-depth and interesting reading. But let me also add that I don't agree with all their doctrines.

    Hello, MountainRun. You said that you had a Sept. 14 start date for Tiberius. I was just wondering what your source material was for that date. Everything I've ever found on the subject lists it as Aug. 19. as the starting date. And all the sources I've seen list it as conclusive. I'd be interested in seeing your source material.
    You said that you'd never realized that the Firstfruits aspect could be used to show a Sunday resurrection. It's interesting, those on the Friday crucifixion side seem to have, by and large, missed this important peice of info. Let me run this by you for your consideration to get your "grey matter" working. Look at the passage in Leviticus again...

    Lev 23:4-17 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. (5) In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. (6) And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. (7) In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. (8) But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. (9) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, (10) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: (11) And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. (12) And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD. (13) And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. (14) And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. (15) And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: (16) Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. (17) Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.

    O.K. The 14th was the Passover. The 15th was the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, which was a Sabbath. Verse 11 says that the feast of Firstfruits was to be...
    on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

    O.K. In the first century there was two ways that this day was reckoned. The Sadducees reckoned from the first day of the feast of unleavened bread; - from that "Sabbath". Thus, they reckoned the feast of Early Firstfruits to always fall on Nissan 16. The Pharisees always reckoned the feast of Early Firstfruits to be the day after the 7th day Sabbath. Thus, always on Sunday.
    The text, if read carefully, makes plain which day. And the way it does this is in the instructions for calculating the "Latter Firstfruits", or Pentecost.
    Verses 15 & 16...

    (15) And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: (16) Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

    They were to count from the day of Early Firstfruits seven Sabbaths, (verse 15) to the day after the seventh Sabbath. Verse 16 specifies that they were to count 50 days to the day after the seventh Sabbath. The only way possible to count 50 days and end up on Sunday, the day after the seventh Sabbath every year is if the count started on Sunday every year! So, the Sadducees were just plain wrong.
    Here's the interesting thing; with Christ being crucified on Friday, both methods of reckoning the day of Early Firstfruits would have come up with Sunday! There could be no doubt in Jerusalem after His resurrection as to weither or not He fulfilled the day of Early Firstfruits!
    One more thing. God knew before He created the world that Christ would be sent to die on a cross. He Himself instituted these days to Israel in the Old Testament. He set the days to be observed. Why was Passover on Nissan 14? Because He said so. Why was the 7th day the Sabbath? Because He said so. Why did Early Firstfruits and Latter Firstfruits (Pentecost) both fall on Sunday? Because He said so. Why do you think He chose Sunday? Think about it and share what you think with me, if you get time.

    By the way, I don't think it was to transfer the Sabbath to Sunday. I've got my own ideas, but I'd be interested to hear what you think. You too, Caretaker.

    God bless,
    Jim
     
  11. mountainrun

    mountainrun New Member

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    Jim, I don't recall what site I saw the Sept. date on. The ones I have seen since all have your Aug. date.

    Finally, to once again show the Jewish understanding of a day and a night nearly 2000 years ago---

    {to those who keep insisting a day and a night always mean 24 hours}

    =========
    "A day and night are an Onah ['a portion of time'] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it". (Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath ix. 3)
    ========

    The Babylonian Talmud of the same period shows the same thing.

    MR
     
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