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Featured Dancing, Gambling, and Drinking

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by saturneptune, Jan 29, 2014.

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  1. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    So how much did you have to drink the day you voted for LBJ, McGovern, Mondale, Carter, Humphrey, Clinton, Dukakis, Kerry, and your latest trophy, Obama?
     
  2. Archie the Preacher

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    Popular sins of the Baptists

    Being a Baptist for most of my life, I remember well the pulpit sourced condemnation on various 'sins'. As I recall, the most popular sins to condemn were: Drinking, dancing, smoking, going to movies. Gambling was mentioned occasionally, but not as often.

    Categorizing 'drinking' as a sin assumed that not anyone, but EVERYONE who took a drink would become an alcoholic. And drunkenness could soon lead to narcotics use and addiction. Or pregnancy for young unmarried women.

    The reality is, there are some folks who should never get close to alcohol in any form. Keep the Listerine and Geritol away from them as well. There are folks who just - in the language of elder times - cannot handle their liquor. However, there is no blanket ban on drinking alcohol in the Bible. (The Koran has such a ban, by the way.)

    Dancing was condemned because the places that allowed dancing were places where one could also enjoy other popular sins - specifically drinking and smoking. Dancing was also condemned because young men could get very close to young women. You KNOW what that causes! Even young women could be tempted being in such close proximity to a young man. Married couples should avoid dancing, as that sort of thing would lead to sexual activity based on crude human desires, not the proper sort of Christian mutual attraction and divine love.

    I know some of you think I'm winging this. I'm not. Preachers and special speakers said this kind of thing with a straight face and felt wonderfully religious about it.

    One more thing about dancing. Rock and Roll was especially condemned as it was even more crude and animalistic. What is no longer mentioned about the condemnation of RnR is it was viewed as 'black music'. One commontator remarked "We don't want our children jumping around like a pack of n-------!"
    This sentiment has been carefully removed from most churches, but traces remain; there are several U Tube videos with clips of 'public figures' from the 1950s and 1960s speaking of such.

    Smoking was condemned prior to the Surgeon General's warning in the early 1960s. Smoking was 'out' because people who smoked also consumed alcohol and went to dance halls. Actually, people knew long prior to the Surgeon General's report that smoking was hard on the health.

    At this point I should point out two things: Smoking and drinking can be hard on the body, depending on factors of heredity and intensity of abuse. (In short, chronic drinking will rot your liver faster than occasional drinking; and so forth.) However, there is NO data to suggest that all drinking and/or smoking will guarantee a health problem. Secondly, gluttony and sloth are just as hard on the body as drinking and smoking; both receive little attention from the pulpit - and even less back in the heyday of the sins we are discussing.

    Going to movies. Movies set a horrible example for Christians, especially young people. Besides, viewers sit in the dark and boys and girls can even kiss! And, to hear from the denouncing 'experts', there was more sex going on at a typical drive-in movie than the Mustang Ranch. (Drive-ins were the worst, obviously.) Not only that, but all those movie stars lived evil life styles and made too much money from movie goers. (Insert stewardship talk here.)

    Gambling has been well covered; typically associated with greed. Also mentioned was the possibility of being addicted to gambling - also covered. Not mentioned so far was the warning about becoming the victim of card sharps and cheats. One could lose all their money and not know they'd been robbed.

    A quick comment on greed. "Greed" in the Biblical sense has a connotation of being willing to 'do someone else out of' money for one's own gain. This means outright cheating or fraud, misrepresentation not amounting to legal fraud, ignoring one's duty to family or God in favor of honestly working more for more pay, and so on. Someone likened investing in the stock market to gambling. That can be true in some cases, however, the successful investor does a fair amount of investigation about the company in which to invest and the market so involved. I think conflating the two is a gross over simplification. Further, if that line of thought is followed, then starting up one's own business is wrong as doing that would be a 'gamble'.

    One of the obvious commonalities of all these 'sins' is that the people who were strongest in condemnation were also people who had been directly affected by the activity in question. Every speaker I ever heard who preached on the evils of strong drink was either a dried out alcoholic or had a [parent, sibling, uncle/aunt, school mate, other significant personal contact] who was an alcoholic or died as a result. Every anti-smoking speaker had been a three pack a day smoker or something similar to the anti-alcohol speaker. Anti-dance speakers had a daughter who had a child out of wedlock resulting from going dancing. And so on.

    I believe most of these people were telling the truth. All manner of things can cause all sorts of 'evil' in the lives of participants. All the things mentioned can get out of hand - depending on the person involved - and cause havoc in one's life. In similar fashion, the woman who founded M.A.D.D. had a daughter killed by a drunk driver. Does that surprise anyone?

    The problem with all this takes several faces.

    One is the 'activist', although having some justification for their point, assume everyone even touching the activity will without fail become totally addicted or overwhelmed by the activity, just as they were. That isn't so. It just isn't so. Look around and see.

    Another face of the problem is the oversimplification of living the Christian life. When I was a child - young man (it was quite a long time ago) one was immediately identifiable as a Christian IF, and it seems only if, one didn't drink, smoke, dance, go to movies, gamble or associate with those who do. So the Christian life is down graded from living in obedience to God and walking in the Spirit to following a negative check off list.

    The third 'main face' of the problem was the withdrawal of association from - thereby abandoning the ability to witness to - those in society who might have been our friends and amenable to our Christian witness.

    The last problem of this approach to 'sin' is that of legalism.

    Do you know how to determine just exactly has a 'drinking problem'? Any one who drinks more than you do. Just exactly how do we determine who is 'really greedy'? Anyone with a bigger income than me. Anyone willing to work more than me. Who has a 'shopping' problem? The ones with more shoes than I have.

    See how simple it is to judge behavior?

    Sin is not a list of proscribed activities. Sin is rebelling against God. Ignoring God's direct commands or by-passing God's guidelines.

    Obviously, some commands are easier to decipher than others. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is really pretty simple to figure. "Love your neighbor as yourself" gets a bit more slippery - especially from an external view. Which indicates all of us Christians should be far more concerned about our own sins, rather than the sins of others.
     
  3. Archie the Preacher

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    Flag on the play...

    Saturn, that was mean.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Actually on election day I am a teetotaler. Perhaps that explains my vote but don't spread that around in SW Virginia. The clan, not KKK, might put the mark on me for voting democrat, not for teetotaling on election day. Even down here I have to keep an eye out for that refugee from Bloody Breathitt!
     
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Them straddle poles from Ky have no heart!
     
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Archie, very good post #62.
     
  7. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Your voting record is so bad Moses should have put it down as an eleventh commandment on his stone tablets. LOL
     
  8. Archie the Preacher

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    Hmmmm

    He might be forgiven in the case of an Obama voter.

    I said 'might'...
     
  9. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    My Observations on THESE!

    First, SN, this is a great conversation starter, so I :applause: you for putting it before us!

    1) Dancing ... while it may not be sinful to dance, and what wife doesn't enjoy a slow, romantic whirl around the hardwood with her best guy, I find it hypocritical when believers judge those who practice dancing in the church services! If its NOT a sin to dance at the local country barn and bar, then why is it a sin for churches who allow dancing during praise and worship to come under the eye of scrutiny?

    2) Gambling is a sin, especially when it is done in excess, or it takes the money needed to pay tithes or keep food and a roof over the heads of the family! Then we have several verses we need to consider before we head on down to the local Indian casino or on out to Vegas!

    1 Peter 4:10 - As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. - and - 1 Timothy 6:10 - For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows - and - 1 Thessalonians 5:22 - Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    Then - we all know that casting lots was a way of gambling, or a game of chance, and the Bible says this: Joshua then cast lots for them in Shiloh in the presence of the LORD, and there he distributed the land to the Israelites according to their tribal divisions. (Joshua 18:10, NIV) - Let's not tear it," they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it." This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, "They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." So this is what the soldiers did. (John 19:24, NIV) - Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless. (Ecclesiastes 5:10, NIV)

    One last word: Those who get into gambling usually end up "coveting" or wanting more, And we are told "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." (Exodus 20:17, NIV)

    As always ... these are simply my opinions on gambling! Personally, I find it a form of entertainment, and never spend more than $100.00 at a casino! That takes discipline, but it can be done. Plus, we never put our winnings back in the machines. Plus that last times were gone to a casino was more than nine years ago! So you see, it isn't like this is a form or entertainment that controls my wife or myself, so I guess I could say that we were not enslaved to it in any form!

    3) Drinking is, in my book, sinful. I used to drink wine, and maybe a cocktail from time to time. My favorite was the Scorpion. However, one day I ran into some church folks as they were coming out of the dinner house side of the bar attached to it, and I was apologetic, and decided that I must be sinning if it embarrassed me; it made me apologize hand-over-foot; and caused me to want to make sure I did a better job at hiding where I went to drink! I'd go out several times a month with the folks I worked with on an adult education grant, and always felt I was doing wrong, but never got caught until that night, and I quit after that as I could find a good reason for continuing, other than to go into a different town miles from where the church was, and that told me I knew it was a sin, and I was hiding it!

    So, there you have my view and input on the subject. Of course, these three "vices" are always going to be up to the eye of the beholder, and if you can rectify it before God and with Scripture, then so be it! :type:
     
  10. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Hi Paul,
    To put it in simple terms, if we are walking close to the Lord daily, we know exactly what is right and wrong for our lives. There is no doubt about it. We do not have to remember all the vices. We get flags and whistles as we approach the situation.

    Something that just gets to me, unrelated to this in a way, is you ask someone to do something for the Lord or church, and the answer is usually, "I will pray about it." That may be a true response in a small number of cases, but usually, the Holy Spirit gives you and immediate answer, and I will pray for it, means no thanks.
     
  11. Archie the Preacher

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    Thank you.

    I go with the theory that if I write enough, someone will think it acceptable. Sort of like old time preachers!

    Seriously, thank you.
     
  12. Archie the Preacher

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    Forehead slap!

    I think that is what I wanted to say. Well put, sir.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The refugee from Mississippi has, as his want, starred a worthwhile discussion. I submit, however, that there is nothing wrong in listing those sins to be avoided if we use Scripture as our guide.

    From the writings of the Apostle Paul:

    Galatians 5:16-26, NKJV
    16. I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
    17. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
    18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
    19. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
    20. idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
    21. envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
    23. gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
    24. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
    25. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    26. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.


    And then from the writings of James :

    James 3:1-18, NKJV
    1. My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
    2. For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.
    3. Indeed, we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body.
    4. Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires.
    5. Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things. See how great a forest a little fire kindles!
    6. And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell.

    7. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind.
    8. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
    9. With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God.
    10. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so.

    11. Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening?
    12. Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.
    13. Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.
    14. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth.
    15. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.
    16. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.
    17. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
    18. Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
     
  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    OR
    I think James is a book chalked full of practical tips for everyday living. He also clearly shows the relationship between faith and works. Great book !!!!!!
     
  15. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    The church is ...

    ... living on the edge! Judith has a good point!

    It is making up doctrine according to what is comfortable to his or her life styles. Why else do we see churches that allow drinking festivals (such as Catholics who hold carnivals with beer gardens); or churches that permit same sex marriage and ordain homosexuals; or churches that lack strict dress codes, especially for women who come in with pants that are skin tight, and skirts that are beyond the mini-skirt ideas; or churches that allow bingo, or take their adult groups to places like Vegas or Indian casinos and call them day-outings; or churches that have ignored the need for water immersion baptism; or churches that teach catechism and offer membership cards in place of accepting Jesus as Savior; or churches that teach you can have anything you want if you have enough faith and give till it hurts; or churches that teach tongues is the only evidence of the filling of the Holy Ghost; or churches that allow astrology and spiritualism to be mixed into its theology and doctrines (reincarnation is one of the teachings); or churches that allow its members to smoke anywhere but inside the sanctuary.

    I could go on, but there is a church out there for just about anyone who has a vice and doesn't want to face it or leave it behind them as they move along the Narrow Path towards richer forms of holiness!

    No, Judith is spot on ... the church is living on the edge, and she will be judged accordingly, along with those who are leading and teaching loose doctrines to appease the vice within us!:thumbs:
     
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    You have to be careful of drinking and gambling............it might lead to dancing.
     
  17. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    WOW RD, you took a little kernel and developed a missive around it. And I am not even sure you "got my point"

    Sure there are "all kinds of churches" "out there", but I bet the situation was similar in the first century too. "There is nothing new under the sun"

    Yes...indeed SOME churches do "live on the edge" is agreeable
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    :eek:Oh my......how awful! BTW, whats the points spread on the game ..... I gotta call my bookie. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  19. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    [​IMG]

    Not helpful, EW&F. Not helpful at all. :laugh:
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Wasn't meant to be....... I though do enjoy alcohol, dancing & I do place bets now and again. So by these legalists reckoning, I'm going to hell. Well if thats what it takes! :thumbs:

    BTW..... Ive been known to listen to Rock & Roll! LOL
     
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