Daniel 9, Coming of Messiah

No need to go through a complex 360-not-really-a-year route if you take a better date for the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

457 B.C -- Ezra 7... Decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

483 days (prophetic day-for-year days in Dan 9)... so that is 483 solar years -- and it brings us to 27 AD "the annointing" the Baptism of the "annointed one" Messiah -- of Dan 9.

One thing is certain Dan 9 is recognized by almost all Bible scholars as THE greatest Messianic timeline prophecy in all of scripture.

It tells us of the 483 year count down to the annointing -- baptism-- of Christ.
It speaks of Christ being crucified about 3.5 years into his Ministry (in the midst of the week - cut off).
It tells us that Christ's sacrifice puts an end to sacrifice and offering JUST as Heb 10 says it does.

It tells us that Christ comes to strengthen - and ratify the Covenant - the New Covenant as Christ said.. "THIS IS the new Covenant in my blood"

1. Luke 22:20
   And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
   
2. 1 Corinthians 11:25
   In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

 

Oops, that would make Him 32 years old.

time in years = yearAD + yearBC -1
31AD + 2BC -1 = 32 years old
There is no year zero:
1 Jan 0001AD is the day after 31 Dec 001BC

Genesis 17:12 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And euery man childe of eight dayes olde among you,
shalbe circumcised in your generations,
aswell he that is borne in thine house,
as he that is bought with money
of any stranger, which is not of thy seede.

This was considered the arrival of a male child:
the eighth day. Jesus was circumcised on
the eighth day:

Luke 2:21 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And when the eight daies were accomplished,
that they shoulde circumcise the childe,
his name was then called Iesus,
which was named of the Angell,
before he was conceiued in the wombe.

Recall BC = Before Chirst
AD = Latin: Annto Domino (English

IMHO Jesus was born 25 Dec 0001BC and
became a Jewish person 01 Jan 0001AD:
the first day of Era named for Jesus, the Christ!

day 1* - 25 Dec 0001BC
day 2 - 26 Dec 0001BC
day 3 - 27 Dec 0001BC
day 4 - 28 Dec 0001BC
day 5 - 29 Dec 0001BC
day 6 - 30 Dec 0001BC
day 7 - 31 Dec 0001BC
day 8 - 01 Jan 0001AD

(The Jews probably started counting
days & years at '1' /instead of '0' like
our computer people start, sometimes)

more follows ...

P.S. some people use CE instead of AD
- 'CE' means 'Common Era' /in other words,
the era of Messiah Jesus/
they also use BCE /before the Common Era/

 

Here is one of my earlier writings.
I wrote it as part of my examples
of misunderstandings of the KJVs
/King James Jersions/ which cause
doctrinal differences.

-------------------------------
Dan 9:25-27 (KJV1611 Edition):
Know therefore and vnderstand,
that from the going foorth of the commandement
to restore and to build Ierusalem,
vnto the Messiah the Prince,
shall be seuen weekes;
and threescore and two weekes,
the street shall be built againe, and the wall,
euen in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weekes,
shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe,
and the people of the Prince that shall come,
shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie,
and the ende thereof shall be with a flood,
and vnto the ende of the warre
desolations are determined.
27 And hee shall confirme the couenant with many
for one weeke: and in the midst of the weeke
he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation
to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate,

Daniel 9:25-27 (KJV1769 Edition)
(Things about Messiah the prince)
25 Know therefore and understand, that from
the going forth of the commandment to restore
and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,
but not for himself: shall be seven weeks,
and threescore and two weeks:
the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

(Things about a prince who shall destroy Jerusalem
and the temple therein):
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and
the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the
end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
poured upon the desolate.
euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

The capital 'P' in the 'Messiah the Prince'
denotes a title: 'Messiah the Prince'.

In the KJV1611 Edition the capital 'P' in
the 'Prince' who shall come & the people who
shall destroy Jerusalem & the Temple therein --
that 'Prince' is the same as Messiah the Prince.
This leads to the post-tribulation rapture
only and a-millinnial (The Millennial Messanic
Kingdom is spiritual not physical OR
the Church is the Millennial Messanic Kingdom)
viewpoints of eschatology.

In the KJV1769 the non-capital 'p' in
the 'prince' who shall come & the people who
shall destroy Jerusalem & the Temple therein --
that 'prince' is NOT Messiah the Prince.
This leads to the pretribualation rapture
and pre-millinnial Second Coming of Christ
viewpoint of eschatology.

One gets variant doctrine over
the capital or non-capital of the 'Prince'
or 'prince' in Dan 9:26.

(Eschatology is very fragile - who variations
in eschatolgy vary according to what
a few key 'and's (or the ampersand '&' in
Revelation 20:4) mean.)

But the Christ (Messiah), who is Jesus,
is not fragile at all -- He will someday
destroy the last enemy: death --
of this we can be sure. The rest of
Eschatology is speculation.
-------------------------------------------------

next, the 'he's in verse 27 -- do they refer to
Messiah or the prince who shall come & destroy
the Temple in Jerusalem?

 

On Sunday, 9 Dec 2007, in heavenly Central Oklahoma, it
is HOME DAY instead of CHURCH DAY. The weather has
us iced in (NOT snow - snow is nice, this is ICE!)

Israel between the Med and the Salt Sea is
comfortable /by comparision to Oklahoma/.
But Israel, like Oklashoma,
the average doesn't tell the story: the average
low is the sum of all the monthly lows.

The average low in December in the part of Israel
called the west bank -- the average low is under 55.
But 3/4ths of the nights in December, the low
is about 60 -- they will be out in their fields
eating the last of the green grass (yes, grass grows
until it freezes). If the low is only 60 /dry/, the
If the low is 35 /cold rain/ the sheep will be /if
possible/ put under shelter.

I note that GOD gave every sheep a WOOL COAT.
They are sheered in the late spring /May/.

The coat of a sheep is very thick in December. In Israel
the coldest month is Feburary. Jan & March
are similar temperature. Dec & April are similar
temperature.

I've tracked the temperature Christmas Eve
in Jerusalem (Jesus was born 8 miles south in
Betheleham, the City of David). I've
tracked the temerature since soon after I
got on Bulletin Boards in June 1984. 5 of 7
years the low temp Christmas Eve is 55 or
higher. only 2 in 7 Christmas Eves under 55.

It is a matter of opinion, so debatable, that
there is no reason to discard the Christmas (25 Dec)
date for the Birth of Jesus due to weather.

It is 66ºF in Bethlehem at the time
of this change noted below. There it
is late afternoon.

 

I agree that if you use Nehemiah's date instead of the one in Ezra - you have to come up with something creative for "years" like "year is not really a solar year to get things to work out. That is why Ezra is a better date. Then years are
"real years".

As for the option of switching to Jewish years -- The Jews had an intercalary 13th month inserted every 3 years so that every 3 years the entire sytem "synced up" and 3 Jewish years equaled 3 "real years". Your solution does not allow for that either.

Nehemiah's decree does not work because when it takes effect - they are merely 40 days from completing their project even after the gates and walls had been damaged by enemies.

That means that the entire project was directed and approved in Ezra's decree.

Nehemiah's decree was to finish rebuilding the city -- a task that had already been approved and was 40 days from completion.

There is no year zero in our Calendar and there is no year at all (as in 3BC or 27 AD) given in scripture.

Using the Gregorian Calendar would have Christ born in 4 BC, no year zero, with "annointing" -- baptism in 27 AD. Which ends the 69th week - starting the 70th week.

Then in the midst of that week (midst of the last 7 years giving Christ about a 3.5 year ministry) the Messiah is cut off.

And as we see in Heb 10 -- He causes sacrifices and offerings to come to an end from God's POV by His "once for all" substitutionary atoning sacrifice.

No wonder Daniel 9 is consdered the greatest Messianic timeline prophecy in all of scripture.

At the end of that 70th week - Stephen is stoned and the Gospel goes in full force to the gentiles.

in Christ,

Bob

 

That, my Brother is a FACT and not even debatable.
Strange, though, how some in the spirit of debate
want to argue it.

The date of birth of Jesus (AKA: Imanuel /God with us/)
is debatable.
The fulfillment of the Daniel 9 prophecy is debatable.
Year zero isn't debatable. -- they ain't one.

Here again is the computation of # of years
from BC to AD:

year AD + yearBC - 1 = # of years

(technically speaking if you consider the yearBC
to be a negative quantity it is

year AD - yearBC - 1 = # of years

since - times - is +, the other formula works.

The -1 comes from the fact (not opinion) that
there is no year zero.

Here is a very interesting explanation.
Those who use year ) might be leaning Buddist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_zero

BTW, the Winter Solstice is in December
NOT the Summer solstice.

 

That is true and solves the case for vs 26.

But in vs 27 "he" in that case is the Messiah who confirms the covenant "This cup is the new covenant in my blood" and puts and end to sacrifices and offerings Heb 10 says this was done by his once-for-all sacrifice for sins.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You should agree with me when you agree with me
like you do here. "Amen Brother Ed" is good
Yes, capital or not capital makes a difference in
who think the 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled
immediately after the 69th week (they believe in no
gap whereas I believe in a gap almost 2,000 years long
so far) by Christ. I.E. to them Christ committed the
abomination that makes desolate. I just can't see
the perfect Lamb of God committing an abomination
('abomination' means God really gets upset about it -
'abomination' is stuff God doesn't like). But the milage
of others may vary.

 

Amen, Brother Antiaging -- Preach it! :thumbs:

Amen, Brother Antiaging -- Preach it! :thumbs:

BTW, I think perchance Bro. BobRyan thinks hie
is a Post-trib only Rapturist, and an a-mill 2ed Adventest.
That is different from preterist. Anyway, I've been discussing
with him for years now. Feel free to discuss the parts you
like to discuss and leave the rest to me. I'm called
to this time consuming task -- it is my current vocation.

Amen, Brother Antiaging -- Preach it! :thumbs:

You are so RIGHT ON!

 

The quotes here come from approximately here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1143853#post1143853

The passage Dan. 9:26-27 does speak of Messiah. It speaks
not of anything else you say. The two characters in Dan 9:26-27
are 'Messiah the Princ' (Jesus) and 'The Prince who Shall Come'
(Antichrist in other passages). Unfortunately, the error of your
logical assumption here equates Messiah with Anti-Messiah;
Jesus the Good (Christ) with pure evil (AntiChrist)

This is correct about the words. But the meaning is there:
Daniel 9:24-27 does speak of
'one seven' or 'one week' which is seven years.
I logically assume that the Tribulation Period is
the Seven Year long (70th week of Daniel) and
don't end up calling evil good in error here in Daniel 9:26-27.

There are 7 passages in Daniel & Revelation that that
speak of the two halfs of the 70th week of Daniel.

Even Messiah Jesus spake of what it says in Daniel 9:26-27.
Here is what Messiah Jesus said answering the Disciples
Question " ... and what shall be the signe of thy coming? ... "
(Matthew 24:3b, KJV1611 Edition)

Matthew 24:15-21 (KJV1611 Edition):
When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place,
(who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
17 Let him which is on the house top,
not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field,
returne backe to take his clothes.
19 And wòe vnto them that are with child,
and to them that giue sucke in those dayes.
20 But pray yee that your flight bee not
in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.

Note Jesus does not say:

// When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, STOOD UP BY ME
in the holy place, ... //

I think if Jesus (the Messiah) was going to commit the
abomination of desolation (AoD) that He would have
told us. Both 'adomination' and 'desolation' have
negative connotations of evil not postitive connotations
of good. I just can't see Messiah Jesus who is the very
essence of God committing an abomination

Sorry 'Prince Messiah' and 'the Prince who will come'
who does the Abomination shall be two different people.
Making this wrong logical assumption means that nearly all
the logic following is also wrong (though some of could
accidentally be correct).

I know that some people will make bad assumptions like
this then deny them blaming God by using:

//That why, I stick with Early Church fathers' teachings,
and also, follow what the Bible saying than
what today's men's teaching Col. 2:8).//

Col 2:7-8 (KJV1611 Edition):
Rooted and built vp in him, and stablished in the faith,
as yee haue bene taught, abounding therein with thankesgiuing.
8 Beware lest any man spoile you through
Philosophie and vaine deceit, after the tradition
of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

I know you were taught the truth by your early mentors:
pretribulation rapture2 -- why didn't you stay
faithful?
The error logical assumption (false axiom) that Jesus
commits the AoD (abomination of Desolation) is one
of the vain deceit philosophies that lead to the error
of 'post-trib resurrection2 only' and a-mill.

 

That is impossible. The 490 year timeline starts in 456 BC

(or even 423 if we use your model) and so the 490 year timeline terminates in the first century AD by every measure.

In fact all numeric timeline prophecies work that way without exception.

If you slice 'em up and insert gaps of 1000's of years of defined lengths of time - they completely fail as numeric timelines.

ALL numeric timelines are contiguous "by definition" without exception.

Take the 70 years timeline that starts Dan 9 -- if you slice it up and insert 1000's of years of undefined lengths of time into it -- it is worthless as a timeline.

This is always the case with all numeric timelines -- no exception possible.

Now see - we agree on something.

It is not a reference to 1948 -- it is a reference to God's plan - to turn to the Gentiles and the probation of Israel ended at the stoning of Stephen.

To think that Israel has returned to true worship of the one true God - accepting the Messiah and entering once again into God's plan for them in 1948 is to miss a lot of history regarding Israel in the past 60 years.

in Christ,

Bob

 

How can I possibly be a-mill??

 

Which part of "I think perchance" you having problems with?
You get to say what you is, not me.

As far as I can tell one can insert additional time
in any timed prophecy IF THE BIBLE DOES.

Daniel 9 clearly talks about the 70 weeks in pieces:

1. 6 week chunk
2. 63 week chunk
3. 1 week chunk, in two 3½-year 1/2 chunks
3a. first half of the 70th week
3b. second half of the 70th week

These breaks are mentioned in the Scripture, but
you gotta end your chant AGAINST the scriputre to
see them.

 

wrong.

Here is right:

4B 3B 2B 1B -0- 1A 2A 3A 4A
4B 3B 2B 1B 1A 2A 3A 4A 5A


Year 1BC is before year AD1
(apparently AD is put before the year, BC after?)

year 1Bc IS NOT = ad1, as you appear to suggest.