Dead in sin and trespasses...

Excellent argument Van, Luke 11:52 also supports this:

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

This shows the determining factor (the key) to be knowledge. And it was not inability preventing or hindering men from entering the kingdom of heaven, and it was not God withholding this knowledge or preventing them either, it was the false doctrine of men that blinded men and locked away the truth.

 

Then to state it properly, the sinner is dead in transgressions and sin. as Paul articulates, he is dead at least as his relationship to God is concerned. But I understand your point, the sinner actively practices evil. You can also add to that Peters commentary in 2 Peter 2:19 " A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him" thus as a sinner he is also enslaved. So if we say dead and/or enslaved whatever, in this state we are enemy's of God, unable to walk with Him.

 

Thats nonsense....the key is not knowledge, the key is Grace.

 

It seems (and please put me right if I am in error) that you believe the Pharisees to be more powerful than God. You seem to be saying that there were people who would have become Christians if only those pesky Pharisees hadn't stopped them, and that God was powerless to do anything to remedy the situation. That doesn't sound like the all-powerful God of the bible to me.

Yet despite the attempts of those Pharisees, many Jewish people, including even some of their own number like Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus, were converted.

 

No that is not what was said at all. And it is more arrogance to twist those words in that way. Neither is it very honest.

 

Mandym....then why dont you tell us what you think it means since your so honest & upstanding. Im curious to hear your explanation, Pastor.

 

Hi David Lamb,

"It seems (and please put me right if I am in error) that you believe the Pharisees to be more powerful than God. You seem to be saying that there were people who would have become Christians if only those pesky Pharisees hadn't stopped them, and that God was powerless to do anything to remedy the situation. That doesn't sound like the all-powerful God of the bible to me."

This view is consistent with God being all powerful. If God had compelled those who were entering with irresistible grace, they would have entered and those pesky false teachers would not have prevented them from entering. But if God allows people to trust in Christ from the heart with all their heart, and they are turned aside by false teachers, that is consistent with God's purpose and does not challenge His power. So the issue is what did God choose to do, not what He had the power to do.

Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that being spiritually dead does not result in total spiritual inability.

 

How does a spiritually dead person made alive? When God spiritually places a person in Christ, they are no longer separated from God and therefore are no longer spiritually dead.
Why does God place a person spiritually in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, through faith in the truth. Who determines if our wretched unclean filthy worthless faith provides access to the grace in which we stand? God. So God does it all, He makes us alive together with Christ when He credits our worthless faith as righteousness and puts us in Christ.

 

Does scripture say those who would enter or those who are entering?

Glfredrick did present the ESV version, and said He did not understand by the NASB, HCSB, NKJV, YLT, KJV, have it they are entering. Perhaps if we look at the underlying Greek?
Why what do you know, it is an imperative verb in the present tense, so it says they are entering, not would enter. That is why all but one modern versions has it as I presented it. I do not version shop for support, I stick with the NASB because it most reliably reflects the underlying Greek grammar.

 

Here is what I said: Why does God place a person spiritually in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, through faith in the truth. Who determines if our wretched unclean filthy worthless faith provides access to the grace in which we stand? God. So God does it all, He makes us alive together with Christ when He credits our worthless faith as righteousness and puts us in Christ.

Here is what Mr. Glfredrick slanderously said I said:
If "God spiritually places a person in Christ..." does God also give "faith" to make that happen, or do you not REALLY believe that "God spiritually places a person in Christ" unless the person first places themselves in Christ?

Seems to be a contradiction in your thinking. "

So first what I said is mistated, and then the contradiction is said to be in my thinking.

Who knew

 

It, salvation, does not depend on the man that wills [to be saved] but upon God who has mercy on whom He has mercy. Being spiritually dead precludes our faith from "putting us in Christ." Scripture is crystal, God puts us in Christ.

 

There are many stages to this brother as you know:
1. Election, 2. Effectual call, 3. Justification, 4. Regeneration, 5. faith/ repenting, 6. adoption, 7. sanctification, 8. Perseverance, 9. Glorification, 10. in total- "salvation".

In simple basic terms, first God sought us out. We ran from him, but He pursued us relentlessly (Praise God).....then he gives us understanding. He did it by making us alive in Jesus Christ by the power of the HS. As a result our eyes were opened to see things spiritually.

Lastly, God has given us a righteousness that we did not have & could never have had on our own--His very own righteousness, which is the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the ground of our salvation.

I will not fight on these points but stand firm in them. When I was lost, that exact scenario was what happened to me to bring me to salvation. Thats my own personal testimony.

 

Calvinists need to find much better ways to discuss things. Like this example false accusations are often made. If you are going to represent the view of someone else you need to represent it correctly not in a false manner.

Everyone agrees we are dead in our sins.

 

I would beg to disagree with you. In glfredrick's defense, I am fairly certain he recalls some on this board who argued against the term "Dead in sins" however I'm not naming any names. Thats why you probably have the question phrased in that fashion but you will have to ask Guy for his choice of wording.