Dead Spiritually as a Result of Adam's Sin?

Paul is telling the reading what he "found" in regard to his own personal experience but you don't get that do you? If this was not true then it is pure nonsense to say the law was given to reveal the knowledge of sin and thus of condemnation under sin! It wasn't given for God to see all men are sinners and condemned under law to death! Dahhhh!

I have dealth with this passage TWICE already in the context it was placed in your previous posts! Do you read your posts completely through????

 

HP: Forcing the text that uses the word 'nature' to indicate sinners from birth or original sin is not gaining that idea from the text itself. Pastor, you can do that as well as apply any presupposition to any text, but what you cannot say is that the text, apart from your presupposition, makes the case you are making as to it supporting the notion derived from your presupposition, not the text itself.

Let me illustrate. Take my position that the nature we are born with is indeed depraved, not spiritually or 'in sin', but rather depraved via natural physical propensities directly due to the fall of man. Now I could indeed indicate that the verse proves my point in precisely the same way you use the text to support OS. What I am getting at is that the text itself indeed speaks of a 'nature' but what it DOES NOT state or imply is what the nature consists of, physical depravity or sin as you would indicate. Are you following this point?

Scripture indicates that once stained with sin one cannot be anything other than a sinner apart from Christ. If OS is correct, God is seen as punishing man for something he in no way can avoid. That is at antipodes with any semblance of justice. If God can be just and punish man for an avoidable fate, we could not in any manner have a conception of justice period. That is not the case. God has indeed instilled into the heart of everyman a sense of immutable justice. It testifies that if one does anything blameworthy or praiseworthy, one must be the first cause of their moral intents. OS destroys all God-given instilled wisdom of that sense of justice.

The bottom line is, when a text can be used to prove, or even if it can be said to prove, "either point," it proves neither. Using the words 'by nature' does not establish, BY THE TEXT ITSELF, OS, nor does it establish the depravity being limited to the physical realm as I believe it indicates, 'in and of the text itself.'

This is an important issue, Can we reason together?

 

IF the law is given that the sinner might come to a KNOWLEGE of sin, obviously BEFORE the law provides that KNOWELDGE he does not KNOW he is a sinner does he???

IF you believe you are really "BLAMELESS TOUCHING THE LAW" you really don't see, comprehend, know, understand that you are really condemned by the law do you???????

So, put your thinking cap on for just a moment. If the law promises eternal life to those who keep it and you believe you are "BLAMELESS" in keeping it then what do you believe the law's verdict concerning you is???? Do you believe it is condemnation unto death or do you believe it is justification unto LIFE????

Now, if the Holy Spirit takes the law and reveals to you that you are not "BLAMELESS touching the law" but a sinner, what change has occurred in your mind??? Have you not FOUND out by personal experience what you thought had been LIFE was now DEATH? Have you not in YOUR OWN MIND gone from LIFE to DEATH in regard to the Law?

I think you can see clearly such must be the case with any lost person who really believes they are "BLAMLESS" in keeping the Law but then come to the KNOWLEGE they are not "blameless" but blamed by the law as sinners. What they perceived as their basis for ETERNAL LIFE has now become their basis for ETERNAL DEATH.

You cannot dispute that Philippians 3:3-6 begins from the time he was an infant under the law (eighth day circumcision under law) to persecution of the church at Jerusalem he beleived he was "BLAMELESS touching the law" and thus perceived the Law as the basis for ETERNAL LIFE.

Therefore, his experience in Romans 7 had to occur some time between leaving Jerusalem on the road to Damascus as he walked thinking about the gospel testimonies he had repeatedly heard from those he killed and persecuted. Jesus said, he had been kicking against the pricks of his own concience as that knowledge of "blameless" had been eroded by a new knowledge of CONDEMNATION in so much that when Christ revealed himself he was ready to say "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

 

That is correct. He is contrasting life and death in their fullest meaning. In the case of death it is inclusive of spiritual, physical and eternal death as death in its fullest sense is the final ministration of the covenant of law upon sinners.

However, no SINNER can achieve spiritual life under the law for the simple reason also stated in the context. His heart has a spiritual veil over it so that he cannot see - spiritual inability - and thus cannot do what the law requires to be justified under the law for spiritual life.

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

The spiritual blindness to the Old Covenant law, is the SAME spiritual blindness to the gospel of Christ. There is no RENEWED blindness but the SAME blindness that accompanies indwelling sin by its very nature. Spiritual death IS among other things, spiritual blindness to the things of God.

This spiritual blindess is self-evident in infants and thus indwelling sin "transgressors from the womb" (Isa. 48:8).

Infants by nature resist authority and the very first word they normally master is the word "NO"! Why? Because their behavior is naturally evil and parents must repeatedly tell them "no"!

 

What you are failing to comprehend is that the New Covenant brings FULLNESS of life. Since a person is spiritually dead but physically alive they are first spiritually quickened and later after the body dies they are physically quikened in so much that the principle of death is entirely removed.

The Old Covenant brings FULLNESS of death. It begins with SPIRITUAL death, then proceeds to PHYSICAL death and finalizes in ETERNAL SPIRITUAL/PHYSICAL death.

So simple, so obvious and yet you have no eyes to see even the simple truths of God's word because your mind is blinded by Satan.

Come on Jerry, show some intellectual honesy! You totally ignored my exposition on this passage! Why? I believe you cannot possibly answer it IF either objectivity or honesty is the measure of one's answer! Please prove me wrong and respond to my post paragraph by paraghraph.

 

The Old covenant brings death in all of its forms. Genesis 2:16 is law and the condition of life under law. The New Covenant brings life eternal in all of its forms.

Lost Man is under the old covenant now and the proof is death as death is the wages of sin and sin is the transgression of the law and we are dying physically because we have died spriitually and thus we are separated from God and who is LIFE and thus the source of ALL LIFE.

Born again man is under the new covenant and now has SPIRITUAL LIFE, and will have ETERNAL PHYSICAL LIFE and so yes the New Covenant is the source of ALL ETERNAL LIFE in spirit and in body.

 

Not so! In the rapture the law of sin at work - corruption - is destroyed in the body as it would if the body went to the grave. In the rapture the soul is completely freed from that indwelling principle of corruption found in the body.

Eternal life in the body is obtained in glorification not by eating this tree or any other tree.

In the eternal age the nations of the saved partake of the leaves but the overcomers in New Testament congregations partake of the fruit of the tree of life (Rev. 3:7; 22:2). However, eternal life in the body was obtained prior to the judgement seat of Christ in the rapture/resurrection long before entering into the new earth or the New Jerusalem. Corruption and death is defeated by rapture and resurrection in a glorified body.

 

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

"for the wages of sin is death" - Rom. 6:23

"sin is the transgression of the law" - 1 Jn. 4:6

The law was violated in Genesis 2:16

"By one man sin entered the world and death by sin" - Rom. 5:12

"By one man's offence many BE DEAD" - Rom. 5:15

You claim that Jesus is not one whit difference than we are? How did his body gain victory over death and the grave? He didn't eat any tree because his body was in the grave? Neither will we have to eat any tree for our DEAD bodies to live again.

When was it "appointed"? It was appointed by Genesis 2:16 and "by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin."

What was Genesis 2:16? It was the Law of God established in Eden.

 

He has to. If he admits men are not born with a sin nature, then he could agree that Jesus took on the same NATURE as the seed of Abraham (not Adam as he falsely argues). But the scriptures say exactly that, that Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham and that it behoved him in ALL THINGS (that would include his nature) to be made like unto his brethren.

But if he admits that men are born without a sin nature his Calvinist/Reformed view collapses like the house of cards it is.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

These are very inconvenient verses for Calvinists.

 

Funny, I thought for sure you said the reason that people suffer physical death is because the source for eternal life for the physical body is no longer available? You did not say it was "The Father" which was that source but "the tree of life"!

So again, How did Christ's physical body have victory over physical death when it was impossible for him to eat of the tree of life since his body was in the grave and not much eating goes on there!!!!!!

No, I am not contradicting it at all. I am simply contradicting the utter extreme stupidity of your application of it. Sin is something that "DWELLS IN MY MEMBERS" rather than part of human nature. It is a parasite just as a disease that has entered the body.


Isa. 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

A sick man is not less human than a healthy man both are 100% human in nature. Indeed, sin in man is likened unto a man who is sick from head to toe:

Sin is likened unto dirt that needs to be WASHED away. A dirty man is no less human than a clean man?

Isa. 1:16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;......
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

So your understanding and application of Hebrews 2:17 is stupid, unscriptural and fanatical.

Pre-fallen Adam was 100% human in nature yet "without sin" dwelling in his members. Christ was made like prefallen Adam and the evidence is overwhelming that he was made like pre-fallen Adam as he is explicitly called "the LAST Adam" and the "second" man.

However, you rediculous theology has every single human being born into the world a potential Jesus Christ. They come already spiritual born of God, incapable of sinning willfully from the womb to late in childhood because they have no comprehension of sin and thus could equally continue without sin just like Jesus Christ.

Your silly theology not only demands the potentiality of every man keeping the law sinlessless but that very potentiality demands the absurd and rediculous idea that every human being potentially can go to heaven without needing any Savior.

 

You had previously stated the reason men physically die is not due to violating the law of God but due to the fact they no longer have access to the tree of life! Right??? Do I have to go find your quotations that you repeated in three different posts to tack your fins down to your own words???????????

So, if phyiscal death is due to not having access to the tree of life and the eating of the tree of life is what provides ETERNAL LIFE IN THE PHYSICAL BODY then how did Christ obtain PHYSICAL LIFE when his body died and was put into the grave! He couldn't eat of the tree of life in order to obtain eternal life for his dead body becuase it was in the grave!!

Hence, eating of the tree of life is not why we die physically because the resurrection body that has eternal life was not obtained by eating the tree of life. It was obtained by the power of God as you rightly say. So, physical death is not due to failure to eat of the tree of life but is the direct result of violating God's law in Genesis 2:16 and eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Violation of God's law brings physical death just as Paul says:

"BY one man sin entered into the world and DEATH by sin...and death passed upon all men.....By one man's offfence MANY BE DEAD"

His argument in verses 13-14 is about PHYSICAL DEATH which was passed upon all men.

The "DEATH" which was passed upon all men is THE LAW OF SIN at work in man which brings man into this world SPIRITUALLY DEAD and then progresses to PHYSICALLY DEAD and then progresses to ETERNALLY DEAD SPIRIT AND BODY.

 

So, eternal life in the body for all of Adam's descendants is not derived from eating the tree of life but it is derived from glorification just as in the case of the Lord's body!!