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Death occured before the fall?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by webdog, Apr 30, 2008.

  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...but we see things added to Josephus' writings by others (as evidenced by Josephus' claim that Christ is the Messiah, he never said that, nor would say that). His words (or whoever wrote that) are not infallible, and are fiction.
     
  2. standingfirminChrist

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    My brother would be one of the first to tell you that Jesus was the Son of God who died on the cross for man's sin... yet my brother died a drunkard and is in hell today.

    Josephus' statement that Christ was the Messiah does not mean he trusted in Christ.

    Paul reprimanded a girl in Acts who told people that he was preaching of the Christ. Yet she was unsaved.

    People do not have to be saved in order to tell someone that Christ was and is the Messiah.
     
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Josephus' statement about Christ have been deemed a forgery, just like this fresh fruit business...not trustworthy. From wikipedia...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

    The one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum. Its authenticity has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it was a forgery.
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

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    Ahhh, wikipedia... a real reliable source. Where anyone can post anything but truth and it be accepted.
     
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So I take it you didn't read it. Not entirely suprised :rolleyes:

    "Most scholars today agree that it has been altered by early Christians seeking to 'improve' it."

    http://www.facingthechallenge.org/josephus.php

    See Origen, too.
     
  6. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    That's funny...

    But seriously, I agree that it was in a specific place. The reason I asked was because I was following along the train of thought I started in the Thorns and Thistle thread about God creating everything that exists during the one-time six-day creation event, the Fall happend, God pronounced the curses of Gen. 3, and as a result removed His great restraining power etc.

    The point related to this thread is that I believe that Morris was correct when he said that God did not create death as a result/following the Fall and the pronouncement of the curses. So here I go speculating again...

    What if God created lions, thorns and thistles, and mosquitos etc. just as they are today, all during the one-time creation event and then used His great restraining power to keep them from acting in an undesirable manner within the confines of the Garden of Eden. However, as the earth was full of all His creatures they did what they naturally do (lions kill and eat, weeds infest, bugs bite etc.) outside the Garden of Eden? Just a thought.
     
  7. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Did you see the thread I started on the reliability of Wikipedia? It turns out that the site is not as bad as you are suggesting. I agree that it is not a suitable sole source or for accademic work. However, for the purposes of discussing here on the BB it is a good place to start.

    So take what webdog has provided and do a google search on the reliability of Josephus and see what else comes up.
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    I have read the thread, and disagree. I myself have went on wikipedia and corrected a wrong entry someone else posted in it and have seen many pages where supposed scholars who must've studied at the CrackerJack School of Sticky Fingers and Tattoos posted things about the Word of God that were not true.

    Wikipedia is not reliable at all when it is open to biased entries.
     
  9. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    But Brother SFIC, the OP of the Wikipedia article that I started clearly states that the articles there are fairly reliable, with the exception of hot button political and religious issues. Therefore, its history and science articles are pretty good. Like I said, it is a good place to start. Then do more research to verify what you see there. Like I just did in the Wikipedia thread regarding the History of Cholera.
     
  10. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Back to the topic. What do you all think of my theory posted in #46 above?
     
  11. standingfirminChrist

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    I agree... speculation. But no Biblical proof to base it on.

    I would have to agree with my wife that until man disobeyed God, there was no death in the world, for death came through sin.

    Had man not sinned, could it be said death was in the world if the Scripture states that death came through sin?
     
  12. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Well that raises two other questions. Today when I was at the SEBTS library researching I found a book that suggested that God is the only one who has eternal life (it simply belongs to Him alone). He gives or extends it to us through faith. He did not create Adam and Eve with eternal life. They only could have lived forever in the Garden of Eden by eating from the Tree of Life and since they had sinned and eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil God had to drive them out of Eden before they ate of the Tree of Life. So question one is: Could this be correct?

    Question two is: When the Scripture says that death came through sin could it mean that physical death come to man through sin?

    I'm not saying I hold to this stuff I'm just thinking out loud so to speak and asking questions.
     
    #52 Bible-boy, Apr 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2008
  13. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Yeah, but it is based on Morris' thoughts about God not creating death as a result of the Fall.
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    I do not believe it is correct for this reason: Death did not come into the world until man sinned. How could he die if death had not entered in yet? Sin was the instrument that brought death.

    I believe that it was speaking of death upon not just man, but animals as well. Think of it this way, some animals kill and allow their prey to decay some before eating it.

    I understand. If we never think about origins of things or how things work, can it be said that we truly are learning?
     
  15. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    I don't know how the author of the book addressed that issue (or if he did). I did not give it a thorough reading. I was looking for other info about creation and the thorns and thistles stuff. However, the author's name was James Barr. Does anyone know anything about him?
     
    #55 Bible-boy, Apr 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2008
  16. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    #56 Bible-boy, Apr 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2008
  17. standingfirminChrist

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    Wasn't that the son of Mr and Mrs Barr?:laugh::wavey:
     
  18. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    I think you may be right... :D
     
  19. Palatka51

    Palatka51 New Member

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    I sort of came into this as a Johnny come lately. So if this has been discussed then please ignore it.

    Now plant life is very different than that of animal life in how it lives and dies. A plant must be uprooted in order to experience any form of death similar to that of an animal. It's source of nourishment and respiration is cut off and it perishes. Before the fall man is given instruction that fruit and herbs are edible and as such to eat a plant or fruit of the tree will not facilitate the death of either. To pluck an apple does not kill the tree. In fact it is designed by God to be desired by man or animal for food. The sweetness and color will entice the animal to devour the fruit and discard the core bearing the seed. The seed then will germinate where the core is left, thus propagating a new apple tree. The original tree still very much alive. This would be the same for the grape. The plucking of a grape does not kill the vine, and so the cycle continues. As grass for grazing goes as long as it is not uprooted it will continue to flourish, even more so as the grazing enters and leaves the animal spreading the seed and fertilizing the next generation of grass. Meanwhile the original root still lives. Again the same could be said for the herb, mostly a leafy plant it is it's leaf that is prized for food and unless it is uprooted would survive and resprout leaves again for food. Meanwhile the flower would pollinate as each animal touched it. Once the plant would be shaken for it's prized leaf then it would spread it's seed. The original plant would still survive without dying.

    So in answer to this thread, No it is within the realm of possibility that no plant "died" before the fall of man.
     
    #59 Palatka51, Apr 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2008
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    How does your theory hold up to carrots? Beets? Potatos?
     
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