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Death

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by webdog, Nov 28, 2007.

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  1. Nonsequitur

    Nonsequitur New Member

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    I think these verses show that soul and spirit are two different things.
    In 1 Thess. spirit, soul, and body are separated by 'and', denoting three different subjects. If soul and spirit are the same, mightn't the Holy Spirit have written something closer to ";and may your spirit, (or soul), and etc.........." or maybe, ";and may your spirit, that is your soul, and etc........"?
    In Hebrews, not only is the word 'and' used again, but there is the question of dividing the soul and spirit. If they are the same thing, do we now have two souls or spirits after the dividing? Furthermore, why would the Holy Spirit even make such a distinction of dividing the soul and spirit if they are the same?
    Merry Christmas
     
    #21 Nonsequitur, Nov 29, 2007
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Even metaphorically speaking, the faith would have had to "live" at some point. It's like a car without a battery is dead...or a pond without sufficient oxygen is dead. The car remains a car, and the pond remains a pond.
     
    #22 webdog, Nov 29, 2007
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Not going to the mat on this one. However, if you look at the context, you see the words "entirely" and "completely". Paul's focus is on the whole person, whether or not you separate soul and spirit.

    peace to you and Merry Christmas:praying:
     
    #23 canadyjd, Nov 30, 2007
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    So a "dead faith" remains "faith"? Was it ever the salvific type of faith? or has it always been the "dead" type of faith?

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #24 canadyjd, Nov 30, 2007
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    It's a faith that is not running, like a car without a battery being "dead". Otherwise, you have salvation by faith AND works, which contradicts Scripture.
     
    #25 webdog, Nov 30, 2007
  6. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    If that is the case, then why does James ask rhetorically, "Can that faith save him?" in v. 14? Or do you believe the answer to James' question is "yes"? Or do you believe that James is talking about some other kind of salvation (ala ME)?
     
    #26 Andy T., Nov 30, 2007
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Do you believe that faith plus works is necessary for salvation? Is that what saves him? I believe it's a call to see if one truly had faith to begin, based on the fruit being produced ("examine yourselves...")
     
    #27 webdog, Nov 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2007
  8. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    Death cannot occur unless there is life. That is the definition of death, the cessation of life.

    Interesting you ask this in light of our Luke discussion in the Perseverance of the Saints thread.
     
    #28 Alex Quackenbush, Nov 30, 2007
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That's a great thread. The exchange between Allan and yourself is very enlightening, and the way a debate SHOULD be. I see the arguments for both sides as equally convincing.

    What I was thinking of was the notion that man is born "spiritually dead" in light of the fact that "the soul that sins shall surely die". At what point did mankind die spiritually in the womb in order to be born "dead"? As you pointed out, for something to die, it had to live at some point, spirit and faith included (faith without works is dead).
     
    #29 webdog, Nov 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2007
  10. dan e.

    dan e. New Member

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    very interesting thoughts.....hmmmm...
     
    #30 dan e., Nov 30, 2007
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    You have faith that is validated by the works it produces, which is what James is saying.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #31 canadyjd, Nov 30, 2007
  12. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    I believe being born spiritually dead is true. But you do bring up a necessary examination.

    Being born spiritually dead requires a person then to trace the source of that termination, I believe it is in Adam and inherent in all humans until they are born again.

    So our spiritual life was once alive and died in Adam. It is resurrected upon the new birth and made alive AGAIN by means of the work of God the Holy Spirit that resurrects the spirit of all believers during all ages.

    The problem might occur for some regarding the material nature of the human spirit and soul. Both are immaterial to the humans and not detectable. But they are realities per Scripture.

    So man's spirit is dead until it is resurrected. I should add then, in my view, the unsaved person is dichotomous and the saved person is trichotomous..

    Now mind you, I did not got into a treatise on the topic and am giving a casual response so far greater examination and citation is warranted but a few challenging thoughts I felt I wanted to contribute.
     
    #32 Alex Quackenbush, Nov 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2007
  13. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    No, I don't believe that.

    That's what I believe about James' question, too. But that sort of goes against your theory that a dead faith means that there was an alive, real faith beforehand. James' question indicates that "dead faith" is not a faith at all...and never was.
     
    #33 Andy T., Nov 30, 2007
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Thanks. I don't hold to Augustinian original sin, so my view may differ from yours. I don't believe our spirits are held accountable for Adam's actions. I think Scripture is clear that we each are held accountable for our own sin, meaning, to die spiritually in my view, each individual's sin would be the cause.
    I believe knowledge of such sin (think Abimilech taking Sarah from Abraham unknowingly, and Paul stating "...sin sprang to life, and I died"), and the ramifications from that are when an individual dies spiritually. Even though Abimilech admitted to Abraham after the fact he had sinned against Abraham, God saw that as unknowing and unitentional, and in fact proclaimed him innocent for that reason.
    Also, if Adam's spirit died, and ours with him, our spirit is not truly dead, but Adam's, no? I'm not seeing how all human spirit's are shared. I believe "in Adam" we die, meaning in like fashion...by blatant disobedience to God, in the same way "in Christ" we live, by sharing in His death, burial and resurrection.
     
    #34 webdog, Nov 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2007
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...or his question pertains to a false hope, a false faith if you will, amongst the church.
     
    #35 webdog, Nov 30, 2007
  16. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    I would equate a false faith with no [saving] faith at all, but we might be playing semantics at this point. IOW, the [saving] faith was never there to begin with, not that it was there at one time and then "died".
     
    #36 Andy T., Nov 30, 2007
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