Debate for "Beliefs on Baptism."

Water baptism is not causing this. What PEOPLE do about water baptism is.

I believe that obeying Jesus Christ's command to baptize, which He intended to be done until the close of the church age at Matthew 28:19-20, is still good and right. I do not believe how some people have handled it negates
1) that the Lord Jesus commanded it, and
2) that we are all under an individual obligation to obey regardless of what others do.

 

GE: I believe your contempt for water baptism is clouding your reading of Scripture. Would we both agree that Holy Spirit baptism is automatic?

Now, read Matthew 28:19-20 “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, |bautizad = baptize| them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, | enseñad = teach| them to obey everything I have told you| ; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
---NBV|RVA margin and translated|NBV|RVA margin and translated|ICB|NASB.

In the "baptize" here at Matthew 28:19-20, it is WE who baptize. This does not describe baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Now, let us turn to the latter part Acts 8 which describes a Jerusalem congregation member approved by the 12 apostles for special service at Acts 6:1-6, called "Philip the evangelist" (ASV) at Acts 21:8. At Acts 8:35-6 we have "And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on the way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch saith, Behold, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" (ASV).

Then, Acts 8:38 "And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him" (ASV).

These passages indicate together that the Lord Jesus Christ commanded baptism in water to be done by His followers through the entirety of the church age. I do not believe God needed to spell it out every time, and I believe that He intended for us to take His whole written Word into account.

I understand how one would be preturbed by how people have treated baptism.
1) Some people have trifled with the timing and the mode, believing with sincerity that there is nothing wrong with this.
2) This has caused some people to be unwilling to be baptized in the pattern shown by the New Testament, with the result that some Christians are not willing to accept those Christians -- which I believe is wrong.
3) Among churches in the denominations that I frequent, a typical salvation message will discuss faith only in passing, and spend the majority of the sermon preaching on baptism. This overemphasis is naturally repulsive to those who know that the Bible emphasizes other matters in salvation and want to emphasize what the Bible emphasizes.
4) Among buildings that churches in my denomination/s* associate themselves with, lies are actually told about the beliefs of other Christians, and this has caused inaccurate perceptions within the denomination/s that I frequent.
*Independent Christian/Churches of Christ.
5) In some churches, a specific set of words are required during the ceremony that are designed to be excluding toward other Christians. Baptism is used to promote divisiveness within the Lord's church..

I understand anyone's objection to any of these abuses. Despite this, I believe it is wrong and gravely dangerous to cite these abuses as reason to suggest disobeying a command of Jesus Christ. I believe the Lord's commandments come first, and I believe that we are called to obey Him regardless of the wrongs others do.

 

Words were added to my quote that were not originally there.

My post ended at "regardless of the wrongs others do."

 

Easy: when you quote me, do not put your words in mine.

Write "QUOTE" and "/QUOTE" in brackets without the quotation marks when you want to break into excerpts. Or, indicate what formatting you will have your words in that are not mine.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Hillclimber1: I find your scenario to be highly speculative. I also find it difficult to believe that the Lord's ministry was only to the Jews. Also, according to Acts 15:8-11, Jews and Gentiles are saved the same way. According to Galatians 3:28, as far as one's standing before the Lord, Jews and Gentiles are the same. The "wall of separation" between Jews and Gentiles was done away with by Jesus Christ:

"EPH 2:11 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands;
EPH 2:12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
EPH 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
EPH 2:14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
EPH 2:15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
EPH 2:16a and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross," (ASV).

What comes after Mark 16:8 has been shown and accepted in most circles to be a forgery, per archaeological evidence of surving ancient manuscripts, medieval manuscripts, and copies of ancient translations.

Also, might I add the following: nowhere in Scripture is it ever taught that any command of Jesus is annulled. Ever. Further, Paul made it clear in 1 Corinthians 1:10-1:13 that we are not to identify more closely with Paul than Peter or vice versa.

You are going to need a lot of Scripture to convince me, and hopefully most Christians, that anything Jesus Christ commanded us to do is actually something that we are not to do. If I were you, I would be afraid of suggesting disobedience to the last spoken words of the Lord Jesus Christ on grounds of this highly speculative system. Do you not realize that the Lord Jesus Christ will send people to Hell?

 

I did not want the thread to be derailed. Hence, I kept the discussion of the forgery simple. The text at "16:9" indicates that it was not an independent earlier document, but was intended to be considered a continuation of Mark. If it is a forged addition, in my opinion, it could not be Scripture because forgery is deception.

Therefore, when I read the Gospel of Mark, I place absolutely no credence to anything after the authentic end at Mark 16:8.

 

Hillclimber1: I believe that Mman addressed the matter you are bringing up better than I would have:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=911927&postcount=46

Let me make a post similar to his. Matthew 28:19-20 reports Jesus saying:
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, |bautizad = baptize| them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, | enseñad = teach| them to obey everything I have told you| ; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
---NBV|RVA margin and translated|NBV|RVA margin and translated|ICB|NASB.

Let us notice the parts in color. The purple commands that PEOPLE baptize. This is not Holy Spirit baptism. It is water baptism.

Now, Jesus told His hearers to teach disciples to obey EVERYTHING He taught. This includes His command to baptize. Jesus commanded this of all people, including those who lived in areas where there were no Jews at all. Jesus mandated that His commands were to be taught and obeyed.

Now, some thoughts of my own:
Paul taught the same things that Jesus did. He indicated this at 1 Corinthians 4:17 when mentioning “principles of behavior| in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church” (NBV|ESV). What Paul taught and what Jesus taught were the same, and they should not be set against each other.

Peter was rebuked for improper behavior. He was never rebuked for his teaching. Therefore, when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 1:9-11

“Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be |knit together| in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been signified unto me concerning you, my brethren, by them that are of the household of Chloe, that there are |quarrels| among you. Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ” (ASV|BishB|NASB|ASV)​

he rebuked the Christians at Corinth for claiming loyalty to any one of these ministers or Jesus Christ Himself at the disparagement of the others. Hence, I believe it is unbiblical to take Paul's teachings and put them above Peter's, or Peter's above Paul. I take the whole New Testament.

Paul baptized people. At 1 Corinthians 1:14 he wrote “I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one could say that you were baptized | in my name” (TNIV|ESV). Paul did baptize, and because Holy Spirit baptism is automatic, this means the water baptism that people can administer. Paul should not be used as a reason to set aside Jesus' command to baptize in water.

I believe that it is simply best to obey the Lord's command to baptize, and as a disciple, be baptized by another disciple.

 

G. E.: The forged addition to Mark adds "Now when Jesus was risen" (KJV) to start. Mark may have included other sources when he wrote, but I do not believe anyone was in a position to add to what Mark wrote on behalf of God. A forgery is deception, and God does not approve of lying. It is on that principle alone that the forgery should be disregarded. If you want to continue to debate the status of the forgery after Mark 16:8, please start another thread.

Evidently not. As you have repeatedly refused to address from both myself and from Mman, there was a deacon of the Jerusalem congregation named Philip, introduced in Acts 6

"ACTS 6:2 And the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not fit that we should forsake the word of God, and serve tables.
ACTS 6:3 Look ye out therefore, brethren, from among you seven men of good report, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
ACTS 6:4 But we will continue stedfastly in prayer, and in the ministry of the word.
ACTS 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus a proselyte of Antioch;
ACTS 6:6 whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands upon them" (ASV).
​

Clearly, Philip was not an apostle.

Now, at Acts 8, Philip converted an Ethiopian official.

"ACTS 8:35 And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached unto him Jesus.
ACTS 8:36 And as they went on the way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch saith, Behold, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" (ASV).​

By now, Philip had told the official about baptism, and the new convert knew water was necessary to do this.

"ACTS 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
ACTS 8:39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, for he went on his way rejoicing.
ACTS 8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached the gospel to all the cities, till he came to Caesarea" (ASV).​

Philip was not an apostle. At Acts 21:8, he is called "Philip the evangelist" (ASV). The Holy Spirit supernaturally sped up Philip's trip to evangelize after he had administered water baptism; evidently, the Lord approved of the job Philip was doing.

Mman and I have repeatedly pointed this character out to you. You have never responded about this matter.

You insist upon defending what is widely recognized to be a forgery, yet passages of Scripture that are undisputably authentic you disregard.

As far as "audacious" as you put it, I believe that it is audacious to tell Christians not to obey a spoken command of the Lord Jesus Christ -- and to do so on such speculation that disregards relevant portions of the Word of God refuting that speculation.