Decisional JUSTIFICATION - Sovereign SANCTIFICATION

Yes. Chosen in eternity past (Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13); called in time.

 

Yes, there is a significant difference.

DOesn't deal with salvation as we are talking about it here.

True, but in Scripture they believe because they are chosen.

Spoken like a true Calvinist.

No it's not. When I, as a Calvinist, tell you what effectual calling is, don't pretend that you as a non-Calvinist who doesn't believe it anyway knows better than I do. I may not know much, but I do know what I believe.

Again, spoken like a true Calvinist.

Absolutely ... again, spoken like a true Calvinist. But why does he make that decision? Because he was chosen and given a new nature by God.

Then you and I have something in common, as do most Calvinists. I don't know of any Calvinists who follow a man.

 

I am not familiar with "decisional justification."

You would guess wrong.

Nope, it isn't.

Basically yes.

That God works the way God wants to work for his own glory.

You're not badgering me. I walk away when I get tired of it and come back sometimes.

There is no "true for me/true for you." Truth is truth and we are required by God to submit to it whatever it is.

 

I am familiar with decisional regeneration. I think the term is confusing. But your bolded statement is incorrect on several counts. First "saved/elect" is, as you know (or at least should know), an incorrect equation. You have been shown over and over again that Scripture never equates election and salvation. So you should stop equating them and bring your views into line with Scripture. Second, Scripture makes plain that election is in eternity past and therefore before you were alive and before any choice could be made. So election cannot be based on man's decision.

There was regeneration in the OT because regeneratino is giving spiritual life to the spiritually dead. Jesus in John 3 says that a teacher of the OT should have known about regeneration. Matthew 10:28 has nothing to do this topic, howerver.

I have never seen a Calvinist start the ordo with sanctification. Most start with election, and all that I have ever seen have the middle order as "justification-sanctification-glorification." So on this, I think you are simply misinformed.

You suppose wrongly. I have never seen a Calvinist do this. Election is not reconciliation to God. They are two different things in Scripture.

I don't know anyone who would dispute this, at least as I understand what you have said. We must turn from sin to the Savior. We must choose that. As you should know, the discussion is about why some choose and others do not.

I don't think this makes much sense.

 

Hi Sky;
Tell me what's the difference is between works for Salvation and it being all of God?
The reason I have to ask is that you don't seem to understand that Salvation is all of God. If so then no matter what man's decision is towards believing in Jesus Christ man's thoughts or decisions just do not matter. If man believes the doctrine of Jesus Christ it is not because man decided to, but because the man has been convinced by God's work.

You stand on;
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

This is true every word of it. We must believe but it's how we come to believe that is the work of God. If you decide to believe then it is no more a work of God, but your own work.

You seem to disagree with scripture and it says very plainly;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To say that you are saved because you chose to believe makes scripture wrong and we both know scripture is not wrong. We may not fully understand it but it is never wrong.
Salvation is not by decision of our will.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Belief being the work of God; How is it we can claim that we decided to believe? Our belief is not our work but God's work. Can you do God's work before you believe? In order that you can make such a decision?
MB

 

You are correct about the definition, but incorrect about who knew about it. The fact is that Jesus remarks on the incredulity of an OT teacher not knowing about regeneration. Jesus indicates that he should have known about it from the OT.

Not in the Bible it isn't. YOu don't get to redefine words. Election is never sanctification. Election is to salvation.

I am well aware of how justification works. I don't need a break from you on it. What we need is for you to get your theology from Scripture.

No. Reconciliation is covered in justification which is before sanctification in the Ordo.

So did you give things to your child before he or she knew she was a child? I have a two year old and one on the way and have given and will continue to give to my children things before they know they are children.

It is a decision we can make after God gives the new nature. Reading MB, he is kind of equivocating on the definition of "decision" but he is saying the same thing.

From what you have said here, I don't think any Calvinist would agree with you. I don't agree with what you say because it simply isn't in the Bible.

 

Once convinced there is no decision if that man is
thoroughly convinced. Once convinced you already believe we do not decide to become convinced. After belief all there is ,is submission. Submission is the result of defeat. In that your reasons for rebellion have been defeated.

Tell me then, is this passage wrong?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

By making a decision to choose between Salvation and rebellion you claim works for Salvation. You claim that you chose to believe when this is a works based belief. Here is why. It is work to believe because it is God's work. Even though it is you who has decided to do so. Can you deny that you believe because you chose to? and if so can you prove that believing is not a work? If you can't then you have to admit that you believe in works for Salvation.
There is no difference between this and believing you have to give up or surrender all. You believe the latter is works for Salvation as well, what's the difference? None I can see.

Tell me is being convinced believing? If so when did you decide to become convinced?

Wrong according to scripture. You admit your saving your self. It's all of God because scripture says so.

Your arguing against scripture. You are denying the truth of scripture to hang on to what you believe is your part of Salvation. When you haven't a part in it.

The grace is the gift of the faith you claim as your own. If you have to work for it, it is no longer a gift. Nor is it undeserved. The gift becomes your due salary for doing the work. Like I said works for Salvation.

Key? Grace isn't the gift talked about but is Salvation and the faith needed to believe. Which is why it isn't our decision. Both faith and Salvation are the gift.

Sadly you still miss it. Being convinced is believing Believing is not Salvation because.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Those who hold the truth in unrighteousness are those who have not submitted to the righteousness of God. Submission is the result of the defeat of our rebellion. When we submit we give up because of our conviction. What we give up is our rebellion. This is called repentance and yes repentance requires a decision. A decision to give up the rebellion.

We still disagree about options.
The options I see are to rebel or not.
Your's is to be saved or not.
Mine is being saved by God and your's is being saved by your decisions.
You will never be able to justify the saving of yourself by yourself. Neither could I.
MB

 

Now, I am goign to ask the BB this question...which is true...the above statement, or

First, we need to admit that the statements are contrary to one another. On the one hand skypair says it can't be shown what God is choosing. On the other hand the Scripture plainly teaches God has chosen "brethren beloved" to salvation through sanctification.

I go with 2 Thess 2:13. How about you?

RB

 

So let's see if I understand. Jesus incredulity about Nicodemus was that Jesus was talking about regeneration and was surprised that Nicodemus didn't understand something else? Please, Skypair. The regeneration of the OT was not the resurrection of the just in any case. I swear you just make it up as you go.

As was pointed out, "chose you to salvation" is pretty clear. Not sure how that confuses you.

Through faith (Rom 5:1). No discussion needed.

Don't jump to conclusions. I might be older than you think.

If by "sanctify" you mean as it is used in 1 Peter 1:2, then yes. If you mean as it is used in a verse like 1 Thess 4:3, then no. But being sanctified (in the 1 Peter 1:2 sense) is not the same as being saved. this continues to be one of your main problems ... You call everything being "saved" and the Bible doesn't do that.

Not sure what this means.

That wouldn't surprise me. I know you are kidding, but I am not. I seriously do not know where you come up with this stuff at.

I don't disagree with that. We do choose to be justified in Christ. It is the product of a new nature. Sovereign sanctification however is a term that has no support.

There you go again confusing things. Indwelling and regeneration are not the same thing.

 

We are using different vocabularies, since you seem to be making up your own rather than the one that is typically used in theological discusison. And there is a distinction between regeneration and indwelling.

Nope, as i defined regeneration, it is the giving of spiritual life to the spiritually dead. That is the way it is defined in theology.

No. Some equate the new nature with regeneration, and I don't quibble too much with that. Indwelling is logically subsequent to that.

Perhaps the problem is that you are using another Bible. My Bible doesn't have John 22 in it.

 

Yes, the Holy Spirit is given in regeneration, but remember that the Ordo is not a chronological division, but a logical or causal order.

No, the Holy Spirit is God who gives life.

 

You should read more carefully then because that isn't what I said at all.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:5 does not say that belief is not a work. It says the man does nothing, and his faith is still counted for righteousness. This is because His faith is a gift, a gift that is directly the result of being convinced by God.

I think PL is right in that you are making this up as you go along. Stop trying to make scripture agree with you and start agreeing with scripture.

No you don't which is the problem you have because you are in denial that Christ is right and you're wrong. Christ said it is a work and one that man does not do.
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent

Who's work is it in this verse? Is it the work of God or, your own work? There's a choice for you.

Repenting is turning from your sin. Surrender is giving up to God all that you are and have. The disciples did it and the richman couldn't do it because of his own rebellion in this case most likely selfishness. There is no denying the disciples gave up or forsaked all.

No It seems you believe you are your own co-redeemer.

I'm not my own co redeemer. I can't apply the blood and neither can you. Salvation being a gift means there is only one condition and that is that you do not reject the gift.

Repentance is not belief. Repentance is turning from your sins. it is not deciding to sin any longer. It's a change of direction. It's a decision to not sin any longer.

Swithching to other god's is not repentance because other god's is still rebellion against the one and only God. Rebellion is still rebellion as long as it is sin.

This is making the Church a co-redeemer. It is not. We are saved by Christ alone no other path will work.

I haven't even remotely suggested such a thing and you know it. I believe that if the body of Christ does increase, it isn't because of man but God.
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
MB

 

is it possible that God makes some accept grace and others He gives a choice? theres nowhere in the bible where it says things are fair correct?
For me it seemed like a choice, but the decisions was already on my heart that I couldnt resist at the same time, if that makes sense..

it seems there are many things to go back and fourth on, but is it possible that God has the authority to chose between the decisions? would you call it unfair if He said you have the choice and to the other He forces? its like Pharaoh, did he have a choice whether or not to let the Hebrews go? He did, but at the same time God had complete control.. Its kind of beyond comprehension and it will make your brain pop, I guess.

how can God be 3 people yet one at the same time? (retorical ?)