Decisional Regeneration

It is because of outrageous statements like these that I think "reformed" theology is dangerous. To be against inviting the lost to Christ is tantamount to not preaching the Gospel at all. The main focus of the Gospel is to call lost mankind back to God through the blood of Jesus.

In my opinion, it is false to preach that only the "elect" can be saved. I find this to be another false doctrine preached by the Calvinist.

 

Terry:
Agreed. It is almost as if alter calls are regarded as some sort of evil and I will never understand that. Now, will all come to bear fruit? Certainly not, but the job of the person presenting the Gospel is to plant and water, it is God that makes things grow.

 

I agree. We do not have an altar, per se, but the last part of every service is explaining what salvation is and an invitation for 'whosoever will' to come forward and accept Christ.

 

I should apologize? For what, exposing false doctrine? I will NOT apologize, ever!

As far as your ridiculous statement about finding a Scripture that proves that the non-elect are supposed to respond to the gospel. Let me see, ah, how about John 3.16? Thank God, when I came forward at church to accept Christ, I was not questioned as to whether or not I was one of the elect.

 

Terry,

First off langugage is everything.

What was Massdak's original question?
"also could you please provide scripture that says those who are not of the elect will come to Christ? i believe the gospel invitation is for every creature but only the elect will respond, only because God has drawn them."

That is about the most simple and scriptural statement about election anyone could ever make. Everyone is invited, but only the elect will come. It is not our job to intellectually persuade someone, we simply proclaim God's Gospel and he will quicken those who are his elect and they will respond with the faith and belief he gives them.

But notice how you turn his question "also could you please provide scripture that says those who are not of the elect will come to Christ?" around to "As far as your ridiculous statement about finding a Scripture that proves bthat the non-elect are supposed to respond to the gospel."

He did ask for a scripture the proves the non-elect ARE SUPPOSED to respond, he asked a scripture that shows whether the non-elect WILL respond.

You failed that test.

"16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:16


Yes John 3:16 does say that "whoever believes in him" will be saved. There are many "whoever" passages in the New Testament.

But that is just the point - if you are elect you will respond, if you are not than you will not respond.

My Pastor who believes in Soverign grace preaches to everyone as if they are the elect, knowing that some probably are not.

But from a human perspective the only way we know if someone is elect is after the fact. After they accept Christ we know they are the elect. If they die never accepting Christ we know they were not one of the elect.

John 6:35-39 & 44(NIV)
"35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day...

44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

So no one can come to the Son accept the father draws them - Ah, but you will say that he draws all men, but then how do you handle that Christ said "All that the Father gives me will come to me" - these are the ones he draws, if he draws a man, he will come to him. If he draws all men, than all men will come to him. If he draws only the elect, then only the elect will come to him.

If he draws all men, can he loose some? Apparently not - "I shall lose none of all that he has given me".

I know Dr. Bob is really going to be tempted to move this discussion to the Calvinist/Arminian forum.

But to tie this in back to the original topic of descional regeneration, Sure we should invite all men to come to Christ, but we don't need gimicks to do so. We simply proclaim the Gospel, and those who accept Christ can do so right in their pew, they don't have to walk the aisle "to come down and meet Jesus" as I have heard so many times growing up - what heresy!

IFBReformer

 

I can remember when our president told a crowd that the reason he is a christian is because of the personal visits Billy Graham made to his parents.

Ever stopped to think about how they knew about the 4000 in the book of Acts. Numbers are souls. How do you think they knew how many came to Christ that day? They counted them for the record.

Ever watch people who want to become followers of Christ. So often the church doesn't know what to do with them. So of course they flounder. I can remember when I was in college and a young lady came to Christ during the summer. The people who led her to Christ went to Church, were in a Bible study and sang in the choir. So when she came back to college she did too. Until the next year when she met some other students who were a part of The Navigators. She got into a Bible study and learned how to share her faith. Later she began to disciple someone. She went to a church for one year. She was in a Bible study, sang in the choir and attended regularly. But she grew little until she joined with other ladies on fire for Jesus and wanted their lives to be multiplied. I work with people all the time who have this same story. The majority of churches are simply disobedient to Mt. 28:19,20. They are not making disciples. They are just giving out programs and allowing people to pick and choose from a buffet. Discipleship is not a buffet it is a command. . The early church was on fire. It has a message that saves. They paid a price for their faith. They discipled others.

A man I know who is a missionary in Uganda told me that the average pastor has been a Christian for three years and pastoring for two. Yet we have in our chruches people who attend every week who seldom if ever share their faith. Someone needs to get those people by the hand and show them how and to help them overcome their fears. But I know the story and I have experienced it. Just ask the leaders in any church to name people who are living for Christ and ask them to name someone they are discipling now. You already know the answers you will get. The majority of times its zero or close to it.

I have talked with other preachers who have come from schools that are against invitations. It is quite noticeable when they preach too. I have asked some of them what is the purpose of their preaching and what they are expecting God to do through the sermon. The answer usually revolves around not much. Most of the time they stand up there and give a lesson. The numbers are evident too. Not many come to Christ through their ministry. Those who have the gift of evangelism are mostly used in churches that are actively doing evangelism.

A few years ago I gave an invitation in a church that had not given one in over 10 years. On that Sunday alone seven people came forward with very heavy hearts. In that congreagtion was a non-christian lady visiting for the first time and she was impressed at how the staff and myself prayed for those people and dealt with them. How we deal with people can be a positive witness for Christ.

The next time you give an invitation ask a first time visitor if he knew what that was all about. When I wasn't pastoring I would invite people to church and they often would ask what that was all about at the end. That is how clear the invitation was. Too often it is something tacked on at the end. If we expect people to make decisions then we will give an appeal so they can understand it and know what to do.


"If this world is going to be reached, I am convinced that it must be done by men and women of average talent. After all, there are comparatively few people in the world who have great talents."

-- D.L. Moody, Christian History, no. 25.

 

As strictly and heavily reformed in my soterioloyg, I have no problem with "altar calls." My approach is always the same: If you have questions, come get them answered from God's word.

I do not always give an "invitation" but we always sing a closing hymn ... something related ot the message that forms an appropriate conclusion to the message.

I do not believe in a 1-2-3 pray after me routine, though I do not think it bad to help those who are not sure what to say, if your conversation convinces you that they have genuine understanding. I have helped some pray, I have told others to go and think about it some more, I have had some (probably most) pray directly on their own. These prayers are often very untheological and awkward, but they are the sweet sounds of sinners crying to God for salvation and that is music to anyone's ears, whether you are reformed or not.

My personal opinion is that way too much of an issue is made over this invitation deal. Too much is made by those who sing until someone responds. I totally reject that. We sing a verse or two, sometimes two different songs if the songs are appropriate to the message ... not in order to get people to come forward but because the songs are an appropriate conclusion. We have sung no songs and simply dismissed with prayer.

On the other hand, too much is made by those who condemn "altar calls" as unbiblical or wrong. Inviting someone to seek spiritual guidance or answers to question is a very biblical approach to matters of life. If you have preached a message, hopefully you have stirred something in the soul of the hearers. IMO, give them a chance to respond. I always invite people to pull me aside after the service if they have questions.

Simply put, there is no right or wrong when it comes to the matter of an "invitation" or an "altar call." There is only right or wrong in the way it is handled or manipulated. That is what we should be concerned about.

 

I really like the way it is handled at our church...

Our pastor or music pastor always mentions toward the end of the service, that we have a prayer room where a couple of the elders will be. This is for counseling if anyone has questions or would like to talk to someone about faith in Christ. Also,this is a proper time to go set up counseling for any spiritual problems one might have.

Molly

 

I would agree ... but Paul dealt with people where they lived and addressed them on their terms. The comments you reference were a comment on philosophy of ministry, which I think addresses a completely different situation than this issue.

When a person believes on teh Lord Jesus, they have made a decision to leave unbelief and to come to belief. That is a semantic issue. When you separate belief from a decision to believe, you are playing semantic games. When you talk about using the words that the Bible uses in inviting a person to Christ, you fail right off the bat because you speak in English. The Bible uses words like pisteute and akoloutheo and stuff like that. Chances are you have never used those words in talking about Christ to a modern English speaking person.

I certainly agree, but you have yet to show that your preference is the biblical example.

I totally disagree. God calls on man to repent, which is nothing less than a decision to leave the old ways and follow in teh new ways. To leave everything behind and follow him is a decision that God commands all men everywhere to make. That doesn't mean man is in control in the least.

 

to sum up your post i do not believe any talent is helpful or needed whether average, great or none, it is the Spirit of God that will lead through His word. the apostle paul made sure his speech and his convincing power only rested on Gods word and not his own persuasive talent. also i believe it is far more biblical to use the same words as the bible uses for inviting a person to Christ and that is not to make a decision but rather to believe on the Lord Jesus. it is more then just semantics and being precise and following on biblical example to the tee is a safe bet to do things right. it goes to reason to invite a sinner to trust in or believe in Christ . to ask someone to make a decision to make Jesus your Lord seems to say man is in control. [/QB][/QUOTE]

So do you do nothing? It is more than stupidity and ignorance that God uses.

Do you ignore 2 Timothy 2:15, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth."

What do you think Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3 when he said, “You must be born again."?

Acts 18:4, “And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.” WHO was doing that?

Acts 28:23,24 When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening. Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe." WHO is trying to persuade?

2 Cor 5:11 “Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences”
WHO is being persuaded.?

Man is not in control of man's destiny but winning souls is the task given by God for every believer. God has given Him that task. I have never seen a lack of wisdom or ignorance ever win someone to Christ.

Believe is a verb in the Greek. To believe is a decision in action. James talks about the difference between a creedal faith and a genuine saving faith.

Remember that Paul was a very educated man. He was educated by one of the best. It is estimated that between one and ten percent of the population had any kind of education. It is most likely closer to one percent. The majority of people could not read.

Certainly it takes all types to win all kinds of people. It takes all the wisdom one has to lead another to Christ. Wisdom comes from God. Ignorance does not give wisdom. It is a knowledge of the Bible and a living relationship with God that gives wisdom. Much of the wisdom we need is already in scripture. But if we are ignorant of scripture then how can we lead others.

It may not take much to win a person to Christ but ignorance drives them away. Recently I have been working with a man whose dad is a well known lawyer and he is well educated. He has been to some churches in the area and told me that the majority of pastors do not understand literary genre and historical background. So I spent about one hour explaining how interpretation should be done. Do you think he continued to come to the church that is led by an ignorant man or stay away? He is somewhat open. But when he hear things he knows that are not true and the pastor is ignorant it just draws attention to the pastor’s ignorance. Trust is gone. Nobody will listen to someone they don’t trust.

One of the main points I tried to make is that evangelism without follow up is simply disobedience and we cannot export it. To carry out the command in Mt. 28:19,20 menas that we do share our faith and make disciples.

Discipleship is not a choice like a buffet luncheon. It is a command. Discipleship is not one of many options it is the only choice. Jesus commanded it.

We need to ask ourselves "Who's going on for Jesus Christ because of our life." If we cannot name any then either we are immature or we are sick.

 

I just wanted to clearify my position on altar calls for what its worth.

I have no problem with a prayer room style "alter call" if you can call it that.

By that I mean in our church the Pastor will mention at the end of services(not all - but many) that we have a prayer room in the front on the right side of the auditorium.

There are workers who can "answer your questions and pray with you if you life after the service".

Thats fine.

Notice that it is after the service. There is no show, no parade of people running down the front aisle. People are saved in the pews and sometimes in the prayer room after the service.

What I think is wrong(not just wrong but unbiblical) if for preachers to do these kinds of things I saw growing up:

The common thread in these is that the Pastor would have Just as I am played 10 times until someone came. Sometimes they would "give up".

Statement #1
"Come down this aisle right now - you know the Lord wants you to, don't wait, the Lord Jesus is waiting down here in the front to save you!"

The problem with this statement is that it gives the unsaved the impression that God cannot save him in his pew or at home for that matter. Jesus is waiting at the front with the Pastor -what heresy!

Statement #2
"You think you going to give up that sin in your pew - your wrong, you need to make a commitment before the church down here in front in the site of God!"

Wrong again, God forgives sin and empowers the sinner just as easily in the pew or anywhere else as he does down in the front with the Pastor.

I saw something at a little church a while back that just blew my mind.

There was an evangelist speaking at this church and he gave an invitation(similar to the one I mentioned above). But the thing that really got my feathers ruffled was that a man brought his unsaved son down the aisle to meet with the Pastor(now this is all in front of the church music playing).

The amazing thing is that this man's unsaved son did not want to go, his father just brought him down there and the Pastor played right in - the are practically shoving the gospel down his throat whether he wanted to accept it or not.

I kid you not, they were having romp of time up there until finally they got tired and gave up. One of the longest invitations I have saw.

THAT IS WRONG - IT IS MAN CENTERED. They were not dependent on the Holy Spirit - they were using pressure tactics to try and illict a response.

If the Holy Spirit was working on the boy, he would have accepted the Lord right there in his pew.

That is what many of these preachers miss - it is not our job to "get people saved" - It is our job to proclaim the Gospel and God the Holy Spirit does the saving.

The other thing about the traditional style altar call is that it places an impediment to accepting Christ that God did not put there.

What if someone wants to accept Christ, but they have stage fright. They might go weeks, months or years thinking they can't get saved because they are afraid to walk the aisle.

Just some thoughts

IFBReformer

 

IFBReformer,

I agree with you!

Good post!

Molly

 

How I agree with you in so many ways!

I believe the invitation is not a time of manipulation, but a time to show genuine care for each person. It shows the person coming that the counselors care and it shows people in the congregation that the people coming are cared for.

A friend of mine gives the invitation at the very end of the service. People can go home or come forward to talk with the pastor or come forward to ask for prayer or for whatever reason. But I believe that we must have some way of encuraging people who want to know more, to be able to get some personal attention.

I was in a church that grew from 250 to over 4000. During the invitation all the people were escorted to a room in the back where someone would pair that person with a counselor of the same age and sex. They went into a small room that had a door that was closed just so there were no distractions and the two people could talk. Each door had a small window.

What I find very interesting is that when I was in a class in seminary the professor asked each of us to describe the most worshipful time in our life. Out of a class of about 60 students only one person said it was in church.