Defending the truth against the primary so called "proof texts" against Calvinism

Jerome, I am new here, but it is my immediate impression that you are displaying the same spirit of shenanigans Spurgeon is condemning. I'm not reproofing you alone brother, as there seem to be a general spirit of bitterness on this subject here. No matter what we believe, it is better to be charitable and to refrain from ad hominem attacks that do nothing but spur ill feelings, and ultimately stem from a party spirit which Scripture condemns.

 

O.B. you are right that nastiness and Scripture-mangling are two whole separate issues Spurgeon had with some Calvinists. They don't necessarily coincide.

 

Well, now you sound just like an Arminian, you are saying you know you are saved because you have done something, you have faith, you have believed.

 

Jesus made it clear that the vast majority of men will be lost.
Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.

Jesus said MANY will go in to destruction, but only FEW find life.
So, if your doctrine is true, you have far more chance of being lost than saved.
How in the world can that encourage confidence and faith? This encourages fear and doubt.

You are correct when you say it is the whosoever will's, but now you also sound like an Arminian.

 

No, I asked you how you could know that God was willing that YOU should be saved, and you answered that you know because you have faith. That is saying you know because of something you did, you believed. This is the kind of answer an Arminian gives, not a Calvinist. A Calvinist must deny they did anything to be saved.

But I can't see how any Calvinist can have real faith, it must be riddled with doubt. You have no way of knowing if God truly wants YOU to be saved short of some Road to Damascus experience. There must be doubt because you do not believe God is willing for all men to be saved. And if God is not willing that all men be saved, there is no way for you to know if he is willing that YOU be saved. There is the very real possibility that God is not willing that YOU should be saved.

You may have some sort of confidence, but it is not founded on God's word as Calvinism interprets it. Calvinism must necessarily encourage doubt, not faith.

 

Well, I can only speak for myself, but if I believed that God was only willing that a few men be saved, and if I believed Jesus only died for a few men, I would find it impossible to have any real peace or assurance.

Thankfully, I believe what the scriptures say, that God is willing that all men be saved, and that Jesus died for all men, so I KNOW that includes me, and I can have real assurance FOUNDED upon God's word.

 

That sure is some sandy turf you're on. Your confidence rests on the supposition that Christ died for the mass of humanity, therefore since you are a member of humanity at-large --you are covered. Many unsaved I guess rest on the same idea that God loves them and Christ died for them --they've got coverage.

Many here think that Christ has appeased the wrath of the Father by being the propitiation for each and every person sin time began and continuing until Judgement Day. But how can there be a J.D. when everyone has no wrath of God abiding on them? everyone must be redeemed -- Universalism.But there's also the issue of those in Hell. their sins have been paid for by Christ -- but yet they themselves are paying for their own sins. A non-Cal view of Christ's propitiation is fraught with so many errors!

Winman,you can have confidence in that as a sinner who recognizes his sin and the separation it has caused you to have with God -- Christ stepped in and saved you by His sacrificial death on the cross. There is no other hope -- no other Savior.By leaning on Him alone for your salvation (in a number of respects) He is yours and you are His.

 

No... As I've said many times before on this board, WE CANNOT DIVIDE THE SCRIPTURES AND SET THEM AGAINST THEMSELVES.

The Scripture says "whosoever will" and that is what even Reformed people belive. We just don't have to invent a category to explain why. Those who believe are the same as those who God tells us in His Word are the elect -- the ones that He has drawn to Himself because He fore-ordained it to be so. And, if we are going to be accurate to the history of theology, we would be forced to say, "Even the Arminians agree with that..." because God's sovereignty in election was the standard position of the church for most of the history of the church until some few humans thought that they had a better plan.

As for "many" and "few" that still does not give us the right to number the elect. Those terms should probably be illuminated by the complete Word of God, and in Revelation, the "few" are described as virtually countless, from every tribe, tongue, and nation. Are they "few" compared to the entire population of the earth for all of human history? Perhaps. But the "few" are likely many more than we think and who are we to decide? That is God's work!

 

Actually, you have it EXACTLY wrong. IF we can have faith at all, we have that faith because God has graced us with it as a free gift. In fact, that is true for Calvinist and Arminian (or whatever one is or is not). The truth is, faith is a gift of God, so if we have it, we KNOW that we are with God.

We don't have a lick of confidence in our "theology" saving us. We have 100% of confidence that God saves those who are His own, and that we have faith is evidence that we are indeed His own.

Now, let's compare the soft human-centered approach that you favor... One "comes to God" based on a pure human desire. You disavow that God HAS to work in your life before you can come to Him. How can you possibly know that you are indeed one of God's own and not worshiping something like the pagan worships some carved out thing or an animist worships some tree, rock, animal, etc.? Just because you happen to have the right God, and the right revelation does not make you one of God's own. In fact, it is that Revelation that says that you are not! It is when one is "born again from above" (and we must note the "from above" part of that equation) that one becomes one of God's own. We must be a "new creation" (which anyone who claims Christ MUST know!) in order to be acceptable to God. No mere human effort can POSSIBLY be satisfying to God, for it is clear in the Word that ALL human efforts are but filthy rags.

 

That is not quite correct. A person can have faith, but lack assurance. For example, say a perfect stranger approaches you and asks to borrow your car, saying they have an emergency, but will return your car in one hour. You are unsure, but decide to trust them and let them have your car. This is faith, you have trusted this person.

An hour goes by and the stranger has not returned with your car. Now you begin to worry a bit. You no longer have much assurance. Two hours go by, now you are starting to get real worried this person will not return your car. Another hour goes by and your car has not been returned, now you have no assurance at all and call the police.

The fact that you lack assurance does not negate the fact that you trusted the person. So faith or trust is not the same as assurance.

 

Just so those reading this thread are aware, this is not a scholarly view of Arminians view of predestination and election. It is NOT just about God's foresight of man's faith, and this statement oversimplifies our views to make them seem absurd. We affirm that God has predestined us (believers) to be conformed to the image of Christ and adopted as his sons, just as scripture teaches. We just don't presume that to mean God also has predestined who would and would not believe in Christ, as do Calvinists.

 

It is you that does not understand biblical faith. Faith in scriptures is founded on a promise by God. When Jesus said "he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out", that is a promise. When God told Abraham he would be the father of many nations, that is a promise.

You cannot have biblical faith unless it is based on a specific promise given by God. This is why the scriptures say "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". When Paul said, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved", that is a promise.

A person who does not believe God means 100% of men when he says he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9), cannot know for a certainty that God is speaking of him personally, therefore it is impossible to have faith upon this promise.

For example, let's say your name is Bob, and you have two friends, Joe and Tom. God promises to save Tom and Joe, but does not mention your name personally. How then can you have faith that God will save you? You can't. You might hope, you might even convince yourself that God is going to save you, but he is under no obligation, giving you no promise. This is false faith.

The promises in the scriptures are meant to be understood as personal promises.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You see, Paul understood that Jesus loved him personally and gave his life for him personally. You must believe this to have true faith founded on God's promise.

Any faith not founded on a promise from God is not biblical or scriptural, and is not true saving faith.

This is why I said I would find it impossible to have faith if I believed Jesus did not die for ALL men, and that God is willing that ALL men be saved. Knowing that Jesus did die for 100% of men, and that God is willing that 100% of men be saved, I can know for a certainty that I am included in God's promise and am therefore enabled to have faith.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Any faith not based on a promise from God is a false faith.

 

You are correct, because I know that Christ died for all men, I know I am included, this promise enables me to have faith. And there is no such thing as an unsaved person who is resting (trusting) that Jesus loves them and died for them, they are saved.

Christ did die for the sins of every man and appeased God's wrath for that sin, but his sacrifice is not applied to the sinner without faith.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Many hear the gospel, that Jesus loved them and died for them. And this is truth. But this will not profit them unless they believe this promise, they come short of it. The problem is not that Jesus did not die for these people, the problem is they did not trust in this work.

2 Kings 7:1 Then Elisha said, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the LORD, To morrow about this time shall a measure of fine flour be sold for a shekel, and two measures of barley for a shekel, in the gate of Samaria.
2 Then a lord on whose hand the king leaned answered the man of God, and said, Behold, if the LORD would make windows in heaven, might this thing be? And he said, Behold, thou shalt see it with thine eyes, but shalt not eat thereof.

2 Kings 7:16 And the people went out, and spoiled the tents of the Syrians. So a measure of fine flour was sold for a shekel, and two measures of barley for a shekel, according to the word of the LORD.
17 And the king appointed the lord on whose hand he leaned to have the charge of the gate: and the people trode upon him in the gate, and he died, as the man of God had said, who spake when the king came down to him.

This lord, this servant of the king did not believe Elisha's promise from God. His unbelief did not prevent God from fulfilling his promise, but because he did not believe he did not profit from this promise and was trampled to death. The food was there for this man, just like it was for all those who believed, but because of unbelief he did not share in the spoil.

It is not enough to recognize you are a sinner, many people admit they have sinned, Judas confessed he had sinned. You must trust in the work of Christ that he suffered and died in your behalf.

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Judas repented, he confessed he sinned. And he meant it, so much so that he went out and hanged himself. But he did not trust Jesus to save him. If he had done so, he would have been saved.

 

Great Response Brother & totally biblical.

 

That's not what the Bible says, it says;

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Spurgeon did not agree with you.

Lots of folks have false faith and are quite assured. You can believe a pond is quite frozen and have full assurance it will hold your weight and nevertheless walk out and fall through. This is a false faith, it has no foundation. Now if someone goes out and drills a hole in the ice and finds it two feet thick, then a person can have true assurance that the pond is safe to walk on.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are very assured that a literal hell does not exist. This is a false assurance not founded on the word of God.