Define Charismatic

A Wikipedia article on Reformed Baptist sheds some light as to why Reformed Baptist congregations are reluctant to embrace the Charismatic movement. Below are the Reformed Baptist traits listed in the article. My observations and comments of my friend's Pentecostal church are listed below each Reformed Baptist trait in blue.

Some common traits of Reformed Baptists are:

The centrality of the Bible: the traditional Christian Scriptures (both Old and New Testaments) are considered to be the "only rule of faith and practice". However, any interpretation of Scripture must always have an orthodox founding.

Being a newcomer on the Christian scene, the Charismatic Movement does not always insist upon Scripture interpretation coming from orthodox foundations. Scripture interpretations preached from the pulpit (led by the Holy Spirit) are just as valid for those in the Charismatic movement as those coming from published theologians.

Creedalism: the ancient Creeds (Apostle's, Nicaene, & Athanasian), historic Confessions (London Confessions of 1644 & 1689), as well as Catechisms (Orthodox Catechism of 1680 & Keach's Catechism of 1693) are all considered summaries of Church teaching but none are held in the same authoritative position as the Christian Scriptures.

My friend's Pentecostal church did not follow any creeds. They did, however, have a book of Degrees, which very much resembled a book of policy and procedures.

Regulative principle of worship: the belief that "the acceptable way of Worshipping the true God, is instituted by himself; and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be Worshipped according to the imaginations, and devices of Men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations, or any other way, not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures," (from chapter 22, paragraph 1 of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith). Every element of the regular weekly liturgy must be expressly commanded from Scripture. Whatever is expressly commanded must be included; whatever is not expressly commanded must be excluded. However, the circumstances of worship may vary from one church to another (i.e. whether worshippers sit in chairs or stand, what time the service is held, etc.).

The "Spirit-filled" services of Charismatic churches are anything but regulatory. My friend's Pentecostal church rarely began on time and lacked formality in the worship service. All of their worship practices were found in scripture (OT & NT), but not found in the creeds of the reformed Christian tradition. Furthermore, my friend's African American Pentecostal church incorporated worship elements from what the leaders believed to have been preserved from the African Christian tradition.

Congregational & Associational: there is considered to be no earthly church authority above the local body of elders. However, traditionally congregations "associate" with other like-minded congregations. These "Associations," which can be considered denominations of a sort, are formed on the basis of a common doctrinal statement, usually the Second London Confession of 1689. Congregations which ardently teach contrary to what is considered orthodox are finally put out of "Association".

Many Charismatic churches have an episcopal type of church authority. In my friend's Pentecostal church, the authority flowed through these offices: Overseer, Bishop, Elder, Pastor, Associate Pastor, Deacon, and Brother/Sister. Furthermore, compensation also flowed up and down the episcopal ladder in the form of returned tithes.

Ecclesiastical Office: There are two church offices: the Elder and the Deacon. Each local church has multiple Elders (also known as plurality of elders). Amongst Reformed Baptist this local elder body is traditionally called the presbytery (not to be confused with the Presbyterian definition of 'presbytery'). The pastor is also considered one of the elders. The Presbytery usually is concerned with the spiritual up-keep of the church, while the Diaconate is concerned with the physical concerns of church members and the physical up-keep of church property.

As explained in the previous trait, in Charismatic churches the spiritual up-keep of the church and physical up-keep of the church property flow from the episcopal offices. In my friend's Pentecostal Church, church property is not owned by the local congregation, but by the incorporated financial entity that owned the church property of all their congregations.

Cessationism: The revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit (Apostles, prophets, miracle-workers, tongues-speakers) are considered by most Reformed Baptists to have ceased. However, there are some Baptists who are self-confessedly Calvinist but who reject cessationism.

Churches in the Charismatic Movement believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit to be noncessationist--still going on. And they can point to Scripture references to support their practices.

Sunday as the Christian Sabbath. Sunday, usually called "Lord's Day", is considered the only Holy Day of Christianity. On Sundays, Reformed Baptists believe that they are to rest from all "earthly" work and business, attend public worship (called "Sabbath Meeting" or "Meeting" by traditionalists), and be about good works. Despite clear statements in their confessions, there is not full agreement among individual Reformed Baptists about whether or not recreation is allowable on the Sabbath, but this is rarely debated and either opinion is often allowed.

The Wednesday and Friday evening services at my friend's Pentecostal church were considered just as holy as Sunday services. ​

...Bob

 

Amy.G...

This is a thread about Charasmatic churches on a Baptist Board. Do you care to tell a little about your experience and how the Lord led you to a Baptist church?

Just curious.

...Bob

 

I was led to the Lord by 2 friends of mine who were both involved in Charismatic churches. I was taken to church by both of them and at the time I thought I must be in the right church because they said so.
There were many speaking "tongues", no interpreter. People would stand up and say "God told me"......
They were all obsessed with Satan. They could not utter a sentence without the devil this and the devil that. After awhile, I began to believe that the devil was after me. I was terrified all the time. So I went to one of their "counselors" (who was just a member of the church, no counseling training) and he told me that the devil was out to get me and his presence was all around me.
Now as a long time Christian I know this is true because scripture says so, but they were talking about the devil being a constant presence with me physically, like he was in the room with me. I was so terrified that I never went back.
I decided to visit a Baptist church and realized that what was being preached was what was in the Bible. I believe God led me there.
I also have a lot of experience with a family member (my sis in law) who has been in the Charismania for years. She went to the Todd Bentley "revival" in Florida a couple of years ago and when I confronted her about his false teachings, she said "well it's not just Baptists who are right". Shortly after she went to Florida, Bentley's ministry was yanked out from under him because he was caught having an adulterous affair with one of his assistants.
My sis in law and her husband started a church in Wyoming where she is co-pastor. Of course that is unbiblical. She tells me about modern day "prophets" and sometimes sends me their latest prophecy via email, which are nothing more than the same trickery that psychics use.
She also preaches faith healing and once I asked her why wasn't Paul healed of the thorn in his side and she had no answer. She has also told me about her faith in Reinhard Bonnke who claims to know people who have been raised from the dead. Her testimonies to my husband's family have made her a joke to them and turned them off from even wanting to know about Christ.

Every Charismatic I've even know has had this affect on unbelievers, so I do not believe it comes from God, but is a counterfeit from the enemy.

 

No offense, but in my opinion this is a horrible book. I own it and have read it cover to cover. MacArthur is too condemning and arrogant for me. I am glad I bought this book though, it was not too expensive and will probably save me from purchasing any more of his books.

As far as Charismatic churches are concerned, many of them, at least the Assemblies of God, are very good churches, although I don't agree with all their doctrine. They are not all guilty of many of the things mentioned by some in this thread.

 

Yes I attacked him by asking questions he refused to answer. That you and john toppass thrive on and accuse of attacks, thus using lies as a basis of your posts is your decision.

Any wise Christian can see all I did was ask the tough questions and then bob boogied and refused to answer and/or face their actual doctrine being practiced in the real world. :thumbsup:

 

The Bible disagrees with their doctrine and tells believers how to respond to them. I won't be partaker of their false teachings, but instead I choose to be lied about by you and others and persecuted for it.

It's interesting you say it's OK to embrace them, when the Bible teaches the opposite.

Hmmmmm. Interesting.

I'll stick to the Bible while you all attack me for doing so.

:thumbsup:

 

What was your opinion on MacArthur prior to reading his book?


I've read his books for years and never felt any of this. I just recently came to realize he is called a calvinist in doctrine. I feel many label him arrogant only due to this which to me is unfair.

I've enjoyed most of his books very much. He's very knowledgable, and I don't see arrogance whatsoever. This label is over used in my opinion and its intent is borderline slander.

 

I am glad you got away from this. Your Biblical stance is refreshing and I commend you for it. Standing separate even when it is not popular to do so is true Biblical Christianity in action. You exemplify this.

Thanks.

 

It depends on your definition of Charismatic. Most AoG churches do not participate in many of the practices described on here. A number of years ago (I don't remember when), the General Council Meeting of the AoG voted to warn their churches to stay away from much of the what is described on here as Charismatic. Since then, most AoG churches have stayed away from excessive emotions.

 

Amy.G...

Thank you for sharing your testimony. I am glad God has led you to a Baptist congregation.

...Bob

 

I'm not a Calvinist, as you know , but I have read several of Mac's books and I highly respect him. I've also seen him on several talk shows (like Larry King) and he is very outspoken about his faith in Christ and doesn't beat around the bush to tell people that Christ is the ONLY way, unlike many of the more famous preachers of our day.

 

I had heard MacArthur on the radio but didn't know a lot about him. I did think well enough of him to purchase and read this book.

I guess we differ in our opinions then. Of course, several posters here, including you and Luke2427 come across as arrogant to me also. Maybe it's a Calvinist thing.

Slander? Come on, having an opinion isn't slander. As someone who claims enough intelligence to pastor a church you should at least know the definition of slander.

 

Bless your little heart.

 

You asked the question.

 

Yes, amen!


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