Define "The Gospel"

Bob quotes Moody as saying:

What is wrong with this quote?
Moody was a dynamic preacher, an evangelist. He wasn't a genius, and he didn't have a photographic memory. Out of 2,500 sermons he can't "remember" him selecting a text from Exodus 20:1-17.
How do we know that Moody even read all the sermons by Spurgeon?

Furthermore, does one have to select Exodus 20 in order to preach on the Law?
Without going into any detailed search, here are some examples.

Christ the End of the Law http://www.apibs.org/chs/1325.htm

The Clean And The Unclean http://www.apibs.org/chs/0499.htm

The Curse Removed http://www.apibs.org/chs/3254.htm

Law And Grace http://www.apibs.org/chs/0037.htm

The Uses Of The Law http://www.apibs.org/chs/0128.htm

It is evident that Spurgeon did not ignore the Law.

 

Answer - there is nothing wrong with that quote.

You may differe with what D.L Moody said he read from Spurgeon's sermons all you wish - I was merely quoting what Moody said.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You "imagination" has always been better than mine DHK. Thus you have no quote at all from me saying that the "blood of Christ is not sufficient" nor that "sins are atoned for by all who walk the face of the earth".

Nor even a comment to that effect from me - let alone the verbatim problem.

What we have is "you" not understanding the text of scripture and then trying to blame it on me.

On the contrary - (If I had been debating calvinists I would most certainly have hammered the 1John 2:2 point -- as I have done repeatedly on this board) -- here is the text you have misunderstood.

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The entire world is not going to heaven "as it turns out". The atoning sacrifice of Lev 16 (Day of Atonement) does not eliminate the need to also have the work of the High Priest completed. (Heb 8 points out that Christ is now in heaven in the Heavenly Sanctuary as our High Priest).

That is the only part you seem to get right on this topic.

Christ satisifed the demands of the law (the penalty) for all of mankind.

Thus the "atoning sacrifice" of Lev 16 is completed - but the High Priestly work of Lev 16 (Day of Atonement) still continues.

The Calvinist position is that all of that ended and we can just ignore the High Priestly ministry of Christ so necessary to the Lev 16 doctrine on Atonment. Thus the innescapable Calvinist conclusion that whoever got covered 2000 years ago - are in fact not only OSAS - but also arbitrarily selected -- since they did not live at the time of the cross, thus no action on their part determines "selection".

Those Arminians who unwittingly fall into the path of embracing that Calvinist principle - are significantly compromised in their Arminian statements.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Notice the repeated references to the "Commandments of God".

No Wonder Paul affirms that point in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

 

What I notice is Bob taking Scripture out of context when referencing the topic of salvation:
1. He uses 1Cor.7:19. The context is marriage, not salvation.
2. He uses Romans 11. The context is God's dealing with the nation of Israel, not our salvation.
3. He uses Mark 7. The context is Jesus' rebuke of the Pharisees emphasis of putting the traditions of men more important than the Word of God, not our salvation.

Bob continues to take Scripture out of context to try to prove a point that he does not have and cannot substantiate.

 

"It is finished" The work of salvation is finished.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

Not one Scripture Bob; not even one? I think you better re-think your position.

No, the entire world is not going to heaven; but all those who put their trust in them are. Why? Because Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:2). Unbelief is a great sin. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. There must be an appropriation of that gift of eternal life provided by that sacrifice of Christ.

Christ is not still atoning for our sins in a Heavenly Sanctuary. That is heresy and is no where taught in Scripture. "It is finished," he said. His atonement was finished. His work on the cross of atoning for our sins is finished. This is one of the most damnable heresies of the SDA.

It speaks to the insufficiency of the blood of Christ.

No it does not.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
--There was only one sacrifice; one atonement.
Your belief is no better than the RCC belief on this matter.

That is because there is not one. It is fiction. You and the RCC get along just fine here. Do you confess your sins to a priest as well?

No, they, in the forekowledge of God, choose whether to trust or reject Christ. God does not force anyone to believe.

I am not a Calvinist, nor am I an Arminian.
Those who think there are just two choices and two camps are naive.

 

It is pretty hard to find anyone anywhere that denies the Christ is the Son of God.

Again the obvious fact that Christ is the 2nd member of the Trinity - the 2nd person of the Godhead is pretty much accepted by almost everyone.

It is also pretty easy to conclude that a minister in the Church of England should be accepting the fact that Christ was God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You have yet to actually prove that I have taken anything out of context.

It is one thing to make empty accusations - it is quite another to prove they are true. In your text above - you prove nothing.

It would be better to address the posts themselves.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1 John 2:2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (NIV)

Thus the atoning sacrifice was indeed "finished" at the cross - just as Christ claimed.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

Heb 8
8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: [b]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME[/b], FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''


Thus it is affirmed that the Gospel offers the New Covenant promise of forgiveness of sins, the new birth, the Law of God written on the mind and heart.

[/b][/b]My point is that you have not given a single scripture showing my position to be in error NOR you have found any quote from me saying that "the blood of Christ is not sufficient".

On the contrary - I repeatedly affirm the 1John 2:2 point of the completed atoning sacrifice on the cross.


1 John 2:2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (NIV)

This is not sending all people to heaven - because Christ also "Ever liveth to make intercession for us" and as 1John 2:1 says "WE have an ADVOCATE with the Father" that is working to this very day in our behalf when it comes to the forgiveness of sins.

Indeed. A point of agreement. Those who are placing trust in Christ (in reality not merely as a pretence) are born again and are saved.

[/b]The work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary is found in Heb 9 where we see that his blood cleanses our conscience from dead works Heb 9:14

Those who wish to deny the Work of Christ for us as our High Priest - should spend some quality time with the NT texts that speak to this point.

John shows us that continued pardon for sin even AFTER being saved depends on Christ's role before God as our advocate - our representative - our high priest.

Our access to God the Father is “through Him” (Jesus our High Priest) still. And we continue to rely upon that High Priestly work being done for us – (now – in heaven).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christ is doing real ministry in the real heavenly sanctuary – of which the earthly was merely a type – a shadow.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.

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"We" are also there by faith - with Christ - receiving the benefits of His intercession - salvation, forgiveness of new sins.

Heb 7
25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Daniel 7 shows us Christ in the sanctuary doing His High Priestly work - we find multitudes are in there as well and court is "in session".



Daniel 7
9 ""I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
[/b][/b]10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.

Again - pulpit pounding and name calling may work for "some" - but not all of us will be impressed by such antics.

Your imagination being better than mine in this case - please explain.

The "one" atoning sacrifice made at the cross is clearly stated in 1John 2:2

Do I need to quote it to you "again"??


ok - just "in case" --

1 John 2:2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (NIV)

Thus the atoning sacrifice was indeed "finished" at the cross - just as Christ claimed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The question asked in the OP is this:

These are the observations I made about you:
"1. He uses 1Cor.7:19. The context is marriage, not salvation.
2. He uses Romans 11. The context is God's dealing with the nation of Israel, not our salvation.
3. He uses Mark 7. The context is Jesus' rebuke of the Pharisees emphasis of putting the traditions of men more important than the Word of God, not our salvation."

Here is how the Bible defines the gospel:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

It is that simple:
The gospel saves.
Christ did for our sins; He was buried; and he rose again the the third day according to the Scriptures.
--That is the gospel, clearly defined in the Word of God.

Paul says:
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

By the Scripture that you use, and you use it out of context, you have added works to the gospel. You have polluted the gospel of Christ, and Paul condemns the one who does that as being accursed.

The gospel is a gospel of grace by faith, and not of works. There are no works involved in the gospel. You have not posted one post where works or commandments of God relate to the gospel. And when you do refer to Scripture referring to "commandments" they are in the context of marriage, which is totally absurd.

Your posting on this subject of the gospel demonstrates a polluted message of the purity of the gospel which the Lord commanded us to preach.

 

DHK - you quote me saying that you are making empty hollow accusations.

Your response is to add more accusations and to quote "you".

Is that supposed to suffice for actually showing a problem with one of my posts???

In Romans 2 Paul says that "according to my Gospel God WILL judge the World" and the judgment process is explained in detail in Romans 2:4-16.

In Rev 14:6-7 the "Everlasting Gospel" is stated as including the proclamation "the hour of his judgment has come".

In 2cor 3 the New Covenant is shown to BE the Gospel that saves and Heb 8 shows the New Covenant to include the New Birth with the Law of God written on the heart and mind, and with sins forgiven, and with adoption into the family of God.

In 1Cor 15 the Gospel is said to include not only the life, death and resurrection of Christ - but even the evangelism of Paul.

In Lev 16 the Atonement doctrine is explained by God.

In 1John 2:2 Christ is affirmed as our "Atoning Sacrifice" not only for OUR sins (saints) but for the sins of the WHOLE World!

in Christ,

Bob

 

The thread is about the gospel. Read the OP. Read the title of the thread.
All of your posts are about the law.
One can only conclude that you believe the gospel = the law.
Otherwise why are all of your posts about the law, when the thread is about the gospel?

 

you are free to make conclusions and guesses - but before arguing that I am in agreement with your guesses - it is best to post something and have the statement from me be the thing that you either differ with - or agree with rather than simply issuing a list of accusations.

As for the the New Covenant BEING the Gospel that provides for forgiveness of sins, adoption into the family of God AND the Law of God written on the heart and mind(the New Birth, New Creation) feel free to debate that point - and use the text of Heb 8 and 2Cor 3 to show how my position there is wrong (if you can ).

in Christ,

Bob

 

IF Jews, JWs and Mormons were in fact "ministers in the Church of England" you might actually have a point.

And that is kind of scary to think about. ---- shudder....



In Christ,

Bob

 

I am not sure which statement your referring to. Sometimes I do refer to "you." And often "you" refers to all in general. Hopefully the context of my statement would make it clear enough.

The problem with most of your posts in this thread is that you have substituted law for gospel. You have redefined the gospel as it is clearly defined in 1Cor.15:1-4.

As others have observed on this thread you have a propensity for taking one verse here and there; one reference or passage here and there and try to build a case on it. One of your favorite references, for example, is 1Cor.7:19--a verse in the context of marriage. But you take it out of the context of marriage and use it as a proof text for law or commandments--ludicrous.
And here, in Romans 2, you do the same thing. Romans 2:4-16, Paul is speaking of the Jews.
CONTEXT: Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
--The passage has nothing to do with OSAS, or the gospel. He is speaking of the Jews.

Revelation 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

First, he doesn't define in that passage what that everlasting gospel is in the above two verses.
Second, there is only one gospel.
Third, do you think that the Holy Spirit would allow Paul and other authors of Scripture to put descriptive adjectives before the gospel, such as we also do.
It is a glorious gospel, a saving gospel, a unique gospel, a wonderful gospel, etc. We also describe the gospel message, often with words that are not found in the Bible. Just because it is defined as the "everlasting" gospel in one place, does not make it any different than "my" gospel in another place. There is only one gospel.
It is defined in 1Cor.15:1-4

In 2Cor.3 Paul gives a defense of himself as an apostle. You are way off base. I don't know what you are talking about.
In Hebrews 8, the author compares the high priestly functions of the Old Testament Levitical system to our Great High Priest of today. It does not describe the New Birth. That is in John chapter 3.

No, the gospel does not include evangelism. One does not need to evangelize in order to be saved. That is backwards.

In Lev.16 the OT Atonement is explained. That is a picture of what Christ did for us on the cross and that is as far as it goes. There is no atonement that now goes on. The atonement was finished at the cross. Our sins have been paid for in full: past, present, and future. They are all under the blood.

If you would learn the meaning and truth of that verse you would be better off. Those who by faith alone appropriate that sacrifice have eternal life and shall never come into condemnation because he has atoned for the sins of the whole world, i.e. the sins of all those in the world of them who have believed in him.