Define "The Gospel"

You are the one that bent Whitfield's statements about Anglican ministers - over to Jews, Mormons and JWs.

Or were you asking "IF it was legitimate" to bend Whitfields statements regarding Anglican Ministers so that they are made to also apply to Mormons?

Is it the bending of Whitefield's actual statement that you are asking about Steaver?

 

Indeed - in this case the entire chapter of Romans 2 does them in.

They are complaining that verses from the Bible appear in a post that do not confirm their traditions. I am actually not as opposed to their tactic of transparently resorting to such methods as you might have at first imagined.

Indeed it is - though your statement above is not even remotely a substantive response to the present problem you have with the Gospel defined in Romans 2.

On the contrary - 1Cor 7:19 affirms the commandments of God as it addresses the topic of circumcision, slavery and marriage.

17 Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in all the churches.


18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.
22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.
23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.
24 Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.


(try reading the entire verse).

Thus 1Cor 7 does not help your problem with Romans 2 and the fact that Paul speaks of the future judgment in which "According to my GOSPEL God will judge ALL" Rom 2:16.

(That so perfectly matches the "Everlasting Gospel" message of Rev 14:6-7 that is stated "in that scripture" as being "fear God and give glory to him for the hour of His Judgment has come".)

Thus the issue of Romans 2 is not solved by your appeal to "only look at marriage no matter what the text says" style solution for 1Cor 7.

All you are doing is bringing up more areas where your argument flounders.

Which "again" is not something I am as opposed to having you do - as some might have at first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Now hide and watch as we actually "look" at Romans 2 - finding that Paul DOES claim to talk about the Gospel AND that Paul lists the examples of BOTH Jew AND Gentile succeeding and BOTH Jew and Gentile examples of those who fail.

(Or perhaps you were hoping that your readers would not take the time to actually "look" at the inconvenient details IN Romans 2?? )

Paul - clearly contrasts the saved with the lost showing that both Jew and Gentile examples are included in each group.

And then - in a most inconvenient manner for those wanting to invent a tiny "snippet gospel" - Paul goes on to a very specific gentile example showing not only the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit going on in the gentile case but ALSO applying the Gospel subject of judgment specifically to the gentile example.

Sadly - the snippet-gospel model many are trying to employ here - did not survive a careful reading of Romans 2.

What I find truly amazing in your response - is that every time I show one verse flatly contradicting your views - you stop and insist that I be given the opportunity to show how the entire chapter also flatly contradicts your views -- as in the case of Romans 2. hmmm ... food for thought.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Oh really? Let us now look closely at the text and SEE IF it is true that the everlasting Gospel message that the Angel has to preach is not in fact not IN the text - as the text explicitly TELLS us what the Angel actually says -

having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice,

"Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

hmmm it remains as a trivial task for the reader to see IF we are not being told what the angel is preaching - in fact the very words of the angel, as he preaches that "everlasting gospel".

Now there you have spoken truth. Glad to see it.

The ONE gospel includes ALL the scripture says it includes. Trying to deny chapters that speak about the Gospel judgment (Rom 2:16, Rev 14:7) as if these are "other gospels" or should be "exluded from the Gospel no matter what the text says to the contrary" -- is not going to be the compelling argument that the serious Bible student will quickly embrace.

Again - you are simply making my argument for me. I am adamantly insisting that this is all the same gospel and it includes everything that the Bible lists in ALL of the texts that speak about what is in the gospel.

In the same way that we view Christ as the "The Word" as "the Bread of Life" as "the Son of God" as "the Son of Man" as "the lamb of God" as "our High Priest". It is ONE Jesus Christ - but He embodies ALL of these attributes. Far beit from any of us to making myopic claims about "He is the way the truth and the Life - but he is not the Word" simply because we find those attributes in different texts rather than all together in one place.

Thus the "both and" model avoid the logical fallacies of "either or".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Oh good! A closer look then at the inconvenient details of 1Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

- Paul insists that he has already given the full gospel message to the church of Corinth. Thus 1Cor 15 is merely a short summary.
- Paul insists that OSAS is dead by stating that salvation is for those saints who persevere – in holding fast to the truth already preached. Thus – a saint that at some point in the future chooses to fall away – will not be saved. (hint you cannot fall away from something that you do not have to start with).
- Paul insists that the OT text be called “scriptures” and that it is the authoritative basis upon which the Gospel message is validated.
- Paul gives us one of the key segments of the Gospel in vs 3 – Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.



4 and thatHe was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

- In these two sentences Paul includes the burial and resurrection AND appearances of Christ in that statement about the Gospel and that which is of “first importance”.
- Thus the confirming evidence that Christ was really raised bodily from the dead is part of the Gospel text that we read in 1Cor 15.
- And yes – it even includes the appearances of Christ to Paul himself.

more...

in Christ,

Bob

 

9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.


12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.

- Here Paul tells us that the resurrection of Christ – a key part of the Gospel – cannot be removed without destroying the Gospel.
-

1Cor 15
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.[/b]

In this section Paul tells us that the Gospel for the saints is negated if the saints are not raised from the dead in a future resurrection. Thus the future resurrection of the saints is part of the “Good News”.



20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits[/b], after that those who are Christ's at His coming[/b],
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Oh good! A closer look at the inconvenient details of Lev 16

5 ""He shall take from the congregation of the sons of Israel two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering.
6 ""Then Aaron shall offer the bull for the sin offering which is for himself, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household.
7 ""He shall take the two goats[/b] and present them before the LORD at the doorway of the tent of meeting.

8 ""Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9 ""Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell, and make it a sin offering.

10 ""But the goat on which the lot for the [b]scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD[/b], to make atonement upon it, to send it [b]into the wilderness as the scapegoat.[/b]

11 ""Then Aaron shall offer the bull of the sin offering which is for himself and make atonement for himself and for his household, and he shall slaughter the bull of the sin offering which is for himself.
12 ""He shall take a firepan full of coals of fire from upon the altar before the LORD and two handfuls of finely ground sweet incense, and bring it inside the veil.
13 ""He shall put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the ark of the testimony, otherwise he will die.

14 ""Moreover, he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; also in front of the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.

15 ""Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.

Notice that the act of atonement does not end when the animal dies - rather the atonement process requires the work of the High Priest.

Christ serves both roles - as we see in 1John 2:1 - our Advocate and High Pries, in 1John 2:2 - the Atoning Sacrifice completed at the cross.


16 "" He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.[/b]
17 ""When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.

Repeatedly we see that the actions of the High Priest combined with the sacrifice of the lamb are what make atonement. So many like to imagine that the whole thing ends when the sin offering is slain - which is when the atoning sacrifice is complete. But in the text of Lev 16 God Himself shows that the Day of Atonement includes more than just the sacrifice alone. It includes the work of Christ as our High Priest.

18 ""Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and of the blood of the goat and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides.

23 ""Then Aaron shall come into the tent of meeting and take off the linen garments which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there.
24 "" He shall bathe his body with water in a holy place and put on his clothes, and come forth and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people and make atonement for himself and for the people.

It is the High Priest that "Makes atonement" according to the Word of God and He does this via the blood of the Atoning Sacrifice. In The NT we see that Christ serves in both roles.


29 ""This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble your souls and not do any work[/b], whether the native, or the alien who sojourns among you;
30 for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
31 ""It is to be a Sabbath of solemn rest for you, that you may humble your souls; it is a permanent statute.
32 ""So the priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as priest in his father's place shall make atonement: he shall thus put on the linen garments, the holy garments,
33 and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar. He shall also make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.
34 ""Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year.'' And just as the LORD had commanded Moses, so he did.

 

Hello everyone
My very first post. Many times ive heard TV preachers say please send us your money so as we can spead the gospel of Jesus around the world as He commishioned us to do. Is that what Jesus told them to do?

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

There are other scriptures that point out the same thing. The good news of the kingdom is what is to be preached and very rarely is.

Luke 4:43
And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

 

Welcome to the board Chowman.
I believe "the gospel of the kingdom" as Christ referred to it, referred to the Millennial Kingdom. He came offering the Jews the Kingdom. But they rejected it and Him, and instead crucified Him.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

The result of that is in the next verse:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Because the Jews rejected Christ salvation is come to all men. Now all who believe on him can become the children of God and enter into His Kingdom, often referred to as the Kingdom of God.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

There is no gospel in Romans 2; There is no gospel in 1Cor.7:19.
The one speaks of the position of the Jews; the other speaks of marriage.
You do a wonderful job of eisigesis, and a terrible job of exegesis. Do you know the difference. Perhaps it is better to say that according to 2Tim.2:15, "wrongly butchering the word of truth."

The topic is marriage.
It plainly says that circumcision and uncircumcision are NOTHING--a fact you gloss over. That is not the topic, but an illustration to support the topic of marriage.
So it is with slavery, an illustration to support the topic of marriage--the inconvenient details that you leave out. The entire subject from the first verse to the last verse of the chapter is about marriage.

--God has called each in what? In their state of marriage!!!!!!!!

Circumcision or uncircumcision doesn't matter in MARRIAGE. Marriage is the topic here.

Keeping the commandments of God in the marriage relationship. Marriage is the topic.

In the condition in which he was called before he was married. He can't change what he was. Neither can an Ethiopian change his spots.

Do not let the peer pressure of others try to change who you are in the marriage relationship. You are one in Christ. You were bought with a Christ. It is Christ that owns you, not others. This is speaking of the marriage relationship not slavery.

Why? Because now you belong to Christ, and in the marriage relationship your status in the world doesn't matter. The topic is marriage.

Do you see the light yet??

 

Rom 2
Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
...
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Your argument is with scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In this case the "calling of God" is a reference to the Gospel coming to the lost and to their being saved. Paul speaks of their remaining in the condition in which they were saved - through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and sweeping all those conditions aside (Jew vs Gentile for example) he simply says "but what MATTERS is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

So far you have yet to show that you have a single leg to stand on. Adding more baseless insults to your list of baseless accusations is not the "perfect substitute" for a bible-based-position that you seem to imagine.

Sadly even that observation is in error -- since I do not ask that we ignore the "Jew vs Gentile" element (as already noted above) when Paul speaks of "remaining in the condition" in which one was called into salvation through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Your imagination not withstanding.

Neither Jew-vs-Gentile nor "slavery" was an "illustration of Marriage" in 1Cor 7.

Again - your argument is with the text itself.

A good example of what the text does NOT say.

But thank you for explicitly stating the eisegesis you employ when coming to this text. Now now reader needs to be confused about your method here.

Again - your argument is "with the text".

The "Calling" in 1Cor 7 is not "a CALL to get married" as you so rashly speculate in a wild sacrifice-all defense of your man-made-traditions..

Paul argues the "remain in the state in which you were called" into the Gospel - if married stay married (even if your spouse is an unbliever) - if Gentile stay gentile, if free stay free.

The "general" theme crossing the realm of people who are "called" by God into the Gospel while married to an unbeliever, or called by God into the Gospel while a gentile, or called by God into the Gospel while slave or free - is that they are to remain in the condition in which they were called into Gospel salvation by God. Because in all these cases "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" and not whether or not your spouse is a believer, or you are a gentile, or you are a slave.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I am kinda married to that "sola scriptura" idea of establishing and testing scripture - rather than "whatever sounds good to me" alternatives.

Heb 8:7-11 is a pretty good summation of the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

So you are saying that Heb 8:7-11 is a tough read?

The Gospel promises made in the Bible - (as we see in that "tough read") are brought about through the mechanism of Atonement that God Himself defines in Lev 16. There we see not only the spotless life of Christ - we also see His perfect atoning sacrifice and the work of Christ as our High Priest as portrayed in the Day of Atonement symbols.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Is the atonement completely 100% finished, or is it still in some way being continued by Christ in heaven?

 

Hello Steaver,

Excellent thread.

The good news for the Israelites was that God is the saviour.

The lack of faith on the part of the Hebrew nation was this, in my estimation:

They did not have faith that God would continue to be their saviour.

The gospel for them, is the same gospel, that God is saviour, and they lacked faith in God (i.e., golden calf).

Though God was their redeemer, their faith lay more in Moses and material supply (sound familiar?)

The gospel is still the same word today, God is saviour, but, as we see in Hebrews 1, God has spoken to us through His Son.

The revelation of Jesus Christ has made complete the salvific plan of God, in that, whereas He spoke to us through prophets, as well as face to face with Adam (who, when realizing the consequences of his sin, would have assuredly knew it was God who spared him), He now speaks to us through His Son, and is specific in that God is still saviour in the person of His Son.

Though the Hebrew nation had prophecy of Christ, they had not full revelation of the Atonement, as even the disciples did not.

They had faith, but they had not Faith In Jesus Christ.

Big difference.

So, in response to another post, yes, it is as simple as, "Believe on the name of Jesus Christ."

That is the Gospel.

This does not negate the need for repentance, which, like faith and belief, is always the end result of God's word when a sinner turns to God for salvation.

Old Testament Gospel...God is saviour.

New Testament Gospel...God is saviour.

Hope all is well with you.

God bless.

 

In 1John 2:2(NIV) we are told that the "Atoning Sacrifice" was completed at the cross.

in Heb 4, 7, 8, 9 and chapter 10 we are told that Christ is now ministering in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.

In 1John 2:1 we are told to "sin not" and then it said "but IF anyone does sin we HAVE an ADVOCATE with the Father".

in Christ,

Bob