Defining "Perfect"

James Newman:So could we say that inspiration may also be a matter of degrees? If a bible, a collection of scriptures, is to be considered inspired, it could only be to the degree that what it contained agreed with what God said? Or is inspired on/off like a light switch?

God's inspiration/miracles are entirely up to HIM. When He's SAID he's gonna do something within a definite time period, that's what He's done, such as when He'd decided to punish Israel for her sins within 65 years, and he did it 13 years later with the Assyrian conquest.

God said he would restore both Israel and Judah & make them one nation again, but he didn't give a specific time. He has largely restored Judah, making her the "pound-for-pound" military champ of all time within 50 years. He didn't do what He said He was gonna do all at once, nor did He SAY He'd do it all at once.

He healed my wife in degrees after what ordinarily woulda been a fatal accident. Some days, she made "quantum leaps"; some days she didn't change at all. Nor is she as she was before the accident...she cannot turn her head very far either way, nor can she raise her right arm completely over her head. BUT...she is alive...her MENTAL FACULTIES AND MEMORY are completely restored...and more importantly, at least 2 people CAME TO CHRIST right there in the ICU waiting room. The entire $572K bill was footed by Workers Comp, every last penny.

I have no doubt that all this was a MIRACLE...and I have no doubt that God coulda simply lifted her from the bed completely whole...or that He coulda chosen to have brought her to Him.

Yes, God performs His supernatural acts AS HE CHOOSES, at HIS chosen speed and degree. Since His authority in overseeing the providing of His word is an "act of God", it's something He performs at the time and to the degree that HE chooses. I don't believe He is bound to any set patterns in this.

 

If by "the most inspired" you mean direct inspiration as opposed to derived inspiration then that would be the Greek and Hebrew original language Scriptures.

Assuming it was not tainted with doctrinal prejudice (such as the use of the word "bishop" in the KJV for which Baptists were persecuted for when they objected to it) or at least you knew where these improper translations were.

Assuming (if you could not read biblical Greek and Hebrew) that said Bible was faithful to those original language mss.

My opinions of course.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]The bible is perfect (as long as you dont mean the bible, and as long as you don't mean perfect)

Show me the difference in the bible between direct inspiration and derived inspiration. These words sound very scholarly, but I'm not sure they are scriptural. I think your definition of perfect bible may be prejudiced from the start. I don't know if your definition of perfect would even allow for the bible to qualify.

 

Amen robycop3, Praise God for His goodness and mercy!

 

I praise God too for Robycop3's testimony.

However, I would suspect that if it was MY wife, she wouldn't be able to move her head so she would be spared at having to look at me. . . (God has a reason for everything.)

Seriously, though, WONDERFUL testimony and very true, the way God works.

I think some of these groups all too often try to "demand" God to do THEIR will. God's will may not be theirs.

I heard the story of three young Christian girls in India who wanted to go to church so bad that they stepped into a raging river, expecting God to help them across. All three were killed. (True story.) Moral to the story: The girls obviously had PLENTY of faith or they would not have stepped into the water. It just was not God's will for them to live.

Maybe His reasoning was to give us this story to understand the difference between "His will" and "our will". When we learn to accept His will, ragardless of what temporary pain, loss or suffering that may be involved--THAT is when we really begin to grow in our faith. IMHO.

 

Well...after my original post,which seemed to bring out the usual skepticism and a few comments of agreement(thanks Mcgyver),I'm gonna leave all the usual arguments alone.I believe what I believe and firmly stand on the evidence that led me there.Inspite of all the questions I have seen thrown around about "which KJV version is the right one",etc.,I'll just stay on the safe ground I know that the Lord led me to...IMHO.
Now...as to dear old Dr.Bob's original question regarding how to "define perfect",I know of ONLY ONE standard whereby we can determine PERFECTION and the same one applies equally to the Word of the LIVING God.That definition of "perfect" is as follows.....God the Father,God the Son,& God the Holy Spirit.Perfection can be summed up in Him and Him only....and mark it down...HE holds His own Word to that very same standard....in HIS originals...AND in the translation(s) that He has ordained for each generation.I obviously believe the one in english for OUR generation was and is the KJV....and no...I don't know which edition of the KJV that applies to so I'll keep using the one I have til God leads me otherwise.My best guess would be that as long as the different KJV editions don't differ in word meanings due to updated language/spellings or doctrinal content then any edition of it would be acceptable.The ones I read and study from are the old Scofield and an edition published by William Collins Sons and Co.that dates back to 1958.I know some of you really educated guys are gonna jump all over me in my supposed ignorance but I have and will continue to have absolute confidence that the Book I hold in my hands not only contains God's perfect Words,but is in fact the very Word of the Living God!And to finish this off...let me just say that I have NO DESIRE to ever presume to be smart enough to question OR correct it.To me that would be shifting sand and DANGEROUS ground.
Press on folks....all this reading is good food for thought...and also somewhat entertaining!

For the Lord.....Greg Sr.

 

The Bible doesn't tell us everything concerning the grammar and other elements of inspiration. For instance you can't show me where in the Bible the difference between a noun and a verb is explained. I showed the difference between direct and derived inspiration with the example of the KJV Acts 12:4 choice of "Easter" vs "Passover".
Had the KJV translators used the word "Passover" then that would have been derived inspiration. "Easter" is clearly wrong and is not inspired in any way (unless one believes in "advanced revelation", which apparently many do).

You are entitled to your own opinion.

HankD

 

Mr.Perry...What's perfect for YOU may be not perfect for ME. For example, I'm right in between sizes for most articles of apparel, and a coat of a certain size may fit me, another make of coat in that same size may not fit properly, and neither one would fit YOU.

So it is with Bible versions. I was saved before I'd ever read more than a few verses of the KJV, while the KJV is the only BV some people have ever read. As time goes by, there'll some day be elderly people who were raised on the NIV, with that version being the only one they've ever read.

I've said this a thousand times, so a thousand and one isn't gonna hurt...people such as I aren't against the KJV...we're against the KJVO MYTH, the false doctrine which says the KJV is the ONLY valid English Bible translation out there.

Is the KJV perfect by the strict definition of perfect as found in the dictionary? Of course not. It DOES have some poor translations and booboos such as the aforementioned "Easter". But it's still perfect for YOU. It IS a valid BV. Nothing wrong with using it alone, long as it's by PERSONAL PREFERENCE, and not by that patently-false man-made doctrine about it.

 

well, we don't seem to be able to get off of the KJVO topic. I'm trying to get as close to a 'perfect' definition of 'perfect' as it would apply to a bible today. Easter/passover has nothing to do with the definition of a perfect bible.

How would anyone recognize a perfect bible if it did exist? I don't think we could, seeing as we are imperfect beings. It's hardly surprising to me that most people say there can't be a perfect bible, because they believe that somehow it would have to be produced by imperfect men. But through the providence of God, He may have provided us with the perfect word and we would not even know it. There is a similar problem in Jerusalem. They are still waiting for the Messiah to come. Plenty of would-be messiahs have shown up, and they have all been treated like lunatics and rejected. The problem is, they realize that if the true Messiah showed up, they would treat him just like everyone else that shows up claiming to be the messiah. What do you do? They have already rejected Jesus, haven't they? The can't see that He had to come once to die for the sins of the world, even though we can see it so plainly in the word of God, because it was revealed to us in the new testament.

How would we know that were not rejecting the perfect word of God right now, just because we didn't see the promises?

 

Some have supplied what the biblical definition of “perfect is and what it is not, but just to remind you again James :

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 101:6 Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me.

From Strong’s

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

From Strong’s

BTW If the 1611 KJB was “complete” then today’s KJB is incomplete seeing that it is missing the Apocrypha (unless you purposely shop for one which includes it.

In the biblical definitions above “perfect” doesn’t necessarily mean absolutely without flaw. The King James Bible is not absolutely with out flaw but it is still perfect in the biblical sense of being complete. But even if God had superintended the translation of the KJB then why did they correct it and how would you know or prove it anyway just as the RCC taught concerning the Latin Vulgate but believe it by faith (without provable evidence).

Enlightenment is the role of The Holy Spirit.

It has everything to do with inspiration which IMO has to do with a perfect bible.

HankD

 

It has everything to do with inspiration which IMO has to do with a perfect bible.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]I agree the Bible must be inspired. What is your point? I don't agree that you are the one to decide what is inspired. Do the days of unleavened bread come before, or after, the passover? Is it unreasonable that Herod would celebrate Easter, being a pagan?

Maybe someone could offer us common folk some pointers on how to spot inspiration, be it direct or derived. I don't have much to go on, except that it should be found in scripture, wherever that is.

 

Neither for that matter are you or King James or the Anglo-Catholic Church of England.

It doesn't matter. For a millenia and a half "pascha" was the Passover until the KJ translators got it wrong.

The Days of Unleavened Bread and the Passover are synonymous.

Ezekiel 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

Matthew 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Mark 14:1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.

Luke 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

NASB Acts 12
3 And when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. Now it was during the days of Unleavened Bread.
4 And when he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivering him to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after the Passover to bring him out before the people.

First of all, show me in the Scriptures where it says that Herod was a pagan.

That's easy, by it's affect upon you.

NASB Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I'll pray for you James in the mean time try the KJV, NKJV, NASB and the NIV versions of the Bible.

HankD

 

Neither for that matter are you or King James or the Anglo-Catholic Church of England.
</font>[/QUOTE]So who is?

That's easy, by it's affect upon you.

NASB Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
</font>[/QUOTE]This seems a bit too subjective to me.

Scholar 1: Pierced me.
Scholar 2: I didn't feel anything.
Scholar 1: Chuck it then?
Scholar 2: Let's.

Here is what the Baptist Message and Faith says about the scriptures:

Where is this book??? What kind of man makes a statement like this about a book he never even claims to have seen? ...all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy. It is? Then why do I have notes in my bible that tells me it isn't?

Who decides what God said, if it is not God Himself?

 

So where did God say that the KJV is perfect? So where did God say that the KJV is to be the measure by which all other BVs are mearsured? So where did God say that the KJV is the only word of God for English speaking people? So where did God say that the KJV is the only bible for this generation?

As far as I am concerned, it is the one you can hold in your hand. It is the one that you will read. The NLT may not be the best example of a bible, but if you atleast read it, it can be used of God. A translation, no matter how good it may be, is useless if it is not used and read.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

I agree, an NIV and a KJV are exactly equal when they are used for doorstops and coasters. I have maintained that God certainly can use (almost?)any bible, and if this is the case, then (almost?)all bibles must contain the word of God to some degree or other. But all bible versions are not equal in this respect, are they?

The question is not so much where does God say that the KJV is perfect, as how would God say that ANY bible was perfect. The bible as a whole did not exist until after the individual books were written. The canon was not finalized until some time after the books were collected. We make grand statements about the bible's infallability in all matters and it's inerrancy etc etc, but do we really believe these statements? Do we believe God intended us to have a bible at all? If so, why would He not give us a perfect bible? If He did give us a perfect bible, how would we recognize it?

 

The Spirit of God.
That same Spirit who witnesses to our spirit that we are the children of God.

I disagree, when you read the dictionary it doesn't have this affect upon you. There are several other passages which could be quoted showing the power of the word of God. This was just a sample. This along with the witness, guidance and enlightening of the Holy Spirit will supply us with whatever we need ( assuming we avail ourselves of it) to accomplish our sanctification.

Personally I never had these problems.

HankD

 

HankD said in answer to who determines what is Scripture..:"The Spirit of God.
That same Spirit who witnesses to our spirit that we are the children of God."

And...

"This along with the witness, guidance and enlightening of the Holy Spirit will supply us with whatever we need ( assuming we avail ourselves of it) to accomplish our sanctification."
__________________________________________________

No offence HankD, but I have heard Mormons say this very thing. I know that is not what you intended, and I am not equating you with a Mormon. But the fact remains that while these statements of your's sound all nice and wonderful; they are still, nonetheless, inadequate to convince anybody of the surety and soundness of your Scriptures.
"Just ask God and He will direct you". The Mormons, JW's and a host of others say this same thing.
The Bible says, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God".
Brother James is doing a fine job in trying to keep you guys focused on the OP. Lay off the KJV issue and explain WHAT is perfect and IF it can be applied to a Book God wrote.

Other than this, this thread has been entertaining!

IN HIS service;
Jim.

 

Good post, Jim. . . . a burning in the bossom does not always apply.

This may be difficult to explain and it may almost sound like KJVo rhetoric. IMHO, the mainstream "accepted" translations. (When I say accepted, I mean those that have been compared by scholars to whichever set of manuscripts that are also acceptable.) These translations can be considered "inerrant" as long as we are talking about the "Word-of-God".

Now, do NOT misquote what I am saying. These translations are NOT Word-for-word perfect. No translation will be. But if you take the main translations (for instance KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, ESV, etc.) you will find the "inerrant Word of God" in those pages. Will you find a perfectly written translation? No.

All doctrine is taken from Scripture as a whole and in context. As long as THAT exists in a translation that has been translated by scholars with the best intent possible to make a good translation, then God's law, His doctrine, and His Word remains "inerrant" and in a sense "PERFECT". Pull a verse out of context and it may contain a translational error.

We know which translations are accurate. We, who are not great scholars, can at least use our interlinears to determine accuracy. We even have a good feel for which Bibles use literal translation vs. dynamic translation and anywhere in between.

We HAVE the inerrant Word of God today and we have it in many translations and I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to know this and to recognize good and unacceptable translations.

To the new Christian, maybe, but not to those who are scholars and can compare the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts (which-ever stream is the clostest). They all contain the same doctrine, the same stories and the same Jesus Who gave His life so that we May become children of the Father by grace.

Just my thoughts on the matter. . .

 

But it is true unless one doesn't believe the word of God.

James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Those who lack faith or waver will be left to their own (or cult leaders) fables and devices.

HankD

 

HankD, No problem there, but also remember that Paul and Jesus both warned us from false doctrine and Paul seriously spoke of testing the spirits to make sure it is from God.

Of course, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, based on your last sentence.