Defining "the law" as used in New Testament

DW, when you address the direct questions in post #72, we can continue.

 

We have a thread on Romans 2 - but to summ it up - in Romans 2 - you see the saved Jew and Gentile - with salvation going "to the Jew first and also to the gentile" - just as Paul in Romans 1 speaks of sending the Gospel to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

You also have cases of lost Jews and Gentiles - who at the future GOSPEL judgment (vs 16) do not go to heaven. Some people like to imagine that the succeding case mentioned in Romans 2 is not real - but the failing cases are real.

In Rom 2:1-3 Paul argues that the people in the church (readers of Paul’s letter to the Romans in this case) who are not the saints of Rome addressed in Rom 1:1-17 and who pass judgment on the wicked world – but then choose to engage in the same sins as the world are going to fall under the judgment of God.



Romans 2:4 the Gospel condition of the call to repentance as we see in 2Peter 3 “God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance”

Romans 2:4-13 the Gospel result of the perseverance of the saints and the eternal reward - applied explicitly to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 2:13-16 the case of Gentiles who are approved in the future Gospel Judgment.

Romans 2:25-29 the explicit reference to Gentiles - who are born-again, new hearts, new creations, the work of the Holy Spirit.

Watch the Success cases in Rom 2: 7-13, 13-16 25-28

in Christ,

Bob

 

I will gladly join you in that regard.

But the Gospel call to repentance is applicable to all the lost - for God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9

Therefore God calls for all men everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

Convicting the World of sin and righteousness and judgment. John 16:8

Do you see Gospel repentance as the starting context for Romans 2?

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?



2Peter 3:9 The Lord is long-suffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
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5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:



Do you see Gospel Perseverance of the saints as the opening context for Romans 2?

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Do you see reference to God’s Law as “doing good” and reference to the impartial nature of God’s Gospel rule?

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.


Do you see the extreme example of “successful gentiles” passing the test of God’s Gospel rule in the future Gospel Judgment?

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
…
25 for indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 so if the uncircumcised mankeeps the requirementsof the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?



14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Rom 2: 27and he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

28 nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 buthe is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

The Gentiles with the Law written in the heart, the holy spirit working on the heart

 

HP: I would agree that obedience to what one perceives as the law must be obeyed implicitly, whether by that which is written upon the heart as primitive as that might be or by way of having been given the written commandments as well, but I am having difficulty with it not being a sliding scale or relative to the knowledge and light one has been given.

Even in the passage of Romans we have been discussing it clearly shows all will not be judged the same. Verse 12 makes this point: Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;.

Christ also pointed out that sin depends on the ‘sliding scale of the amount of light one has been given. Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

The apostle James states about the same thing in this passage. Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” This passage clearly takes into consideration the amount of light one has when considering guilt.

It would appear to me that Dr. Walter has drawn a stiff uncompromising stance on the law of God and as to what obedience entails, and has not given careful reflection to passages that clearly tie guilt to ones sliding scale of understanding. Lu 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

HP: Verses 18-32 simply show that regardless of the law they might abide by, the wrath of God is revealed against all the unrighteousness committed.


According to Romans 2:14 I would say some indeed do keep it at least in some limited degree. I would agree with you that their obedience in one point does not negate the fact they violated it in another. My point is to show that obedience to the law is not an impossibility, nor do men need to be granted special abilities to obey. Our guilt before God is not one from lacking abilities but rather from lacking ‘the will’ to act in accordance to our abilities. The law of God is not something so hard to comply with that it is a natural impossibility to obey. De 30:11 ¶ For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 ¶ See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

HP: Scripture says clearly to me that again, some do keep at least portions of the law they know of. To keep it merely means they are willing in accordance to that which they understand. To violate it means to will in opposition to what they intuitively know is right.

 

HP: The word ‘if’ you use clears up that point. IF what you do is sin, THEN you perish. I agree. On the other hand IF you honestly have no light that something is sin, it does not become sin until you do. The sliding scale I am referring to is the one that judges something as sin according to the light one has. I may be able to do something that is not sin to me that is in fact sin to you, or the other way around.

HP: Again, the sliding scale has to do with the amount of light one has as to whether or not sin is imputed. I fully agree that WHEN one has the light, and THEN acts in opposition to it, all are judged as sinful.

 

HP: I feel you are taking that comment by our Lord to mean something not intended. You also failed to mention the last portion of that verse. “Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”

I would believe that Jesus was simply questioning the young man as to if he really knew who he was speaking to. It was a reference to His Diety, NOT making a point about the moral character of all men. There is more than one reference of men who were perfect before God and righteous, wholly following the law.

HP: You jump to unwarranted conclusions DW if you believe for a minute that I believe one can, in this dispensation, be justified by the law. The law has absolutely no ability to cleanse one from the least sin, and God now calls ALL men to repentance. On the other hand, if you believe one can be justified ‘apart from’ obedience to the law, you are promoting antinomianism. If salvation does not bring us into obedience with God’s law, such a one is deceiving themselves as to their standing before God. I am certain there are some of us that would see one thing as being part of God’s law and another disagree, but whatever one sees as God’s law must of necessity be complied with to have a clear conscience before Him. Any man that has a conscience not void of offense, has no just grounds to believe they are in right standing with God.

Of a truth, man is NOT justified by the law, but neither will any be justified apart from obedience to the law. If one desires to have the Apostle Paul's assurance, he needs also to have his conscience, one void of offense before God and man.

 

HP: No disagreement here.

HP: That happens to be a VERY subjective conclusion seen through the rose colored lenses of ones own opinions. It adds nothing to meaningful debate.

 

HP: What is ‘my opinion’ and how does it ‘contradict’ James 2:10???

 

In Romans 1:1-17 Paul shows both Jews and Gentiles keeping the law - accepted as saints and approved of God.

in Romans 2:6-29 Paul shows how "both Jews and Gentiles" are receiving "immortality and eternal life". He also shows cases where there are people among both Jews and Gentiles that do not receive eternal life.

You have to read and accept the text even when it points to details that do not fit man made traditions.

in Christ,

Bob

 

What you say is true - but in the case of a gentile that shows the Gospel New Covenant principle with the works of the Law of God "written on the heart" - and though they follow Christ in limited light - they are covered by the perfectly spotless righteousness of Christ - which in fact meets all the demands of the Law entirely.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Paul's letter to the Romans calls for obedience to God's Law - in Romans 2:11-16 it is the basis for acceptance in that future Gospel judgment when "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22.

You have inserted the idea that the "obedience of faith" in Romans 1 is to be divorced from the "doers of the law" in Romans 2 who are justified.

That idea does not survive the text.

Agreed. But in Romans 1 and in Romans 2 Paul is not talking about Christ "obeying" in the "obedience of faith among the gentiles" nor in Romans 2 is he talking about christ being a "hearer but not a doer" of the Law.

In both Romans 1 and 2 - the choice to obey - is the choice that the saved saint makes. And it is seen in Romans 6 and 8 as well- actually DOING what they have chosen to do.

In Romans 7 we see the "choosing" and in Romans 2, 6, and 8 we see the "doing".

Hence Paul starts out the entire letter with the concept of "the obedience of faith".

I am teaching the Bible "alone" - and insisting that we not ignore texts just because they do not fit the man-made traditions of OSAS or just because they do not deny the Bible doctrine on perseverance of the saints. It is the "ONE Gospel" of all ages.

in Christ,

Bob