1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Definition: Christian

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Rufus_1611, May 25, 2007.

  1. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    Remember, "love" is a verb and not an emotion. People can "love" (emotion) their wives and still beat them within an inch of their lives. However, do you think this qualifies as "love" the way that it's used in this verse?

    Let me ask you a couple questions about the verse: The one who is having and keeping the commandments (both are present, active, participles; the action can be stopped) is the one who is loving (present, active, participle; verb based on actions); they "shall be loved" (future, active, indicative). What happens if he quits having and keeping and loving? Does God quit loving them? Are they suddenly unsaved?

    That is love. Love is not simply an emotion.

    Only born again believers are capable of obeying him. Not all saved people have any interest in obeying, and some only have an interest in obeying out of fear.

    You are quite correct to say that our obedience and love (you had the order backwards from the previous verse you quoted) is revealed in our actions. But, that does not mean that every saved individual will be obedient or even has a desire to be obedient.

    "Born again" is found only in 1 Peter. It's based on works. "Born from above", which is found in John 3:3, is not. To be born from above, you simply believe.

    Well, this is a good sign for being a disciple, but we're talking about saved people in general, not those who embrace his teachings. A saved person should do good works. A saved person should be a disciple. There's no guarantee of that.

    What is "thanatos" (death)?

    Well, you changed from "indwelling" to "filled". Which one do you want to discuss?
     
  2. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes! Yes!

    I would agree with this statement 100% if the "will produce" were changed to "should produce". Oh, I see the "if not", so if I read you correctly, you are saying that "they will produce it or else", and the "or else" is not that they are unsaved.
     
  3. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wanted to add here that not only does the context support should, and the grammar states explicitly should, I can find no variant readings that say anything else.

    We should walk in good works, but we might not.
     
  4. Accountable

    Accountable New Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2007
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    0
    Originally Posted by LadyEagle
    A saved individual, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is going to automatically see the need to repent from sin and turn from their wicked ways because they ARE indwelt by the Holy Spirit - and will produce some good fruit and change in behavior - if not, their days will be shortened (as Paul says - for this reason some "sleep among you."). They may be saved, but "so as by fire." How sad.


    If you are saying what I think you are saying, you would agree that there are saved people who do not bear good fruit but they are indeed saved and at the Judgement Seat of Christ they will "suufer loss" but shall be saved "so as by fire."
    (I Corinthians 3)

    Am I reading your thoughts correctly? If so AMEN!

    I would also agree that it is indeed sad. I believe many will be sad at the Judgement seat of Christ when they "suffer loss."
     
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    JJump, Hog, it is obvious that you follow the teaches of Zane Hodges and the like in believing that a saved individual will not necessarily have any good works. In fact, you believe that someone who is saved can live a life of total disobedience to God and outright deny the Lord that bought them and still be saved. You also believe that a saved person can spend 1000 years in the lake of fire, which scripture makes clear is only for the wicked and unbelieving.

    I do not believe this doctrine and I consider it to be completely against the teachings of scripture. I do not care to debate with you any further on this subject.

    God Bless
     
  6. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interestingly, I've been associated with many people, most of whom I've heard of (mostly through accusations of others), but never read, nor met. I've never read any of Zane Hodges works, although I'm aware that he is a Plymouth Brethren and teaches (taught?) at DTS. I've never read Joseph Dillow's works, although it's been suggested. Nor Joey Faust, although I will be getting his works soon, thanks to a brother. I have read some of S. S. Craig's writings, but not much.

    My entire life, my favorite literature has been reference works. I like reading history books, science texts, encyclopedias, dictionaries, etc., and this preference spills over into studying Scriptures. I read the Scriptures. I compare different texts. I read dictionaries. I avoid denominational reference books, or reference books that are based on a translation instead of the underlying texts. (Such as Strong's, although his numbering system is indispensible.) I will read commentaries from scholars in their respected field, such as Robertson (from Louisville Baptist Seminary), but will read Gill with a jaded eye.

    I have not, to my knowledge, ever stated that a saved person will go to the lake of fire, but I have shown from Scriptures where a saved person can go to hell. The lake of fire is literal; hell is figurative. ("Hell" is the word used to translate four different words in the Bible, that much of Christendom has twisted to be synonymous with "lake of fire", and they either ignore the passages or use them to "prove" that we can become unsaved.)

    I don't teach any doctrine that I cannot show in Scriptures. I don't get them from these other men because I've never studied them. The only men I get these doctrines from are Paul, Peter, John, James, Matthew, Mark, Luke, etc.

    I really do think that I need to read some of Hodges' work, and Dillow's, etc. Perhaps when I get some cash.

    Interestingly, and J. Jump can correct me if I'm wrong, J. Jump saw these things from context. The former pastor at the church up here got them from the context a few years after leaving seminary, and was starting to see that the grammar also supported the context. However, I can see them plainly in the grammar. The context supports the grammar and the grammar supports the context.

    Much denominational doctrine decides to ignore great chunks of Scripture in order to embrace man-made doctrines, many of which came into existence after an assembly's statement of faith was written. It doesn't matter if it's Baptist, Catholic (which interestingly had very sound doctrines up until Constantine took over), Pentecostal, or Church of God with Signs Following.

    We're told that in the last days that most will become apostate, and I can see it within society in general and the Church specifically. I think this has come about by society being dumbed down and Satan is using that to his advantage. My Greek professor would often state in exasperation with some student, "How can I teach someone Greek when he doesn't even understand English!" (He was, of course, applying this since English was his primary language, but the same would hold true of a Russian or Japanese or whomever.)

    When I was in high school, we had to diagram sentences. Today, only 15% of school students ever even learn to write in cursive, and very few even know the difference between a noun and a verb, much less digramming a sentence or understanding what a present, active, participle is.

    Words mean things. If more churches taught from the original languages, and more people knew English, I don't think it would eliminate denominations, but it would certainly reduce them. But, if you don't know what words mean and don't know sentence structure, you can make words mean whatever you want them to. You cannot legitimately take two words with different meanings and suddenly claim they mean the same thing.

    God was not the author of confusion. He wroted exactly what he meant. Men have corrupted it. Men continue to do so, and many will be decieved.
     
    #26 Hope of Glory, May 26, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2007
  7. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    So then are you coming to the conclusion that the warnings in Scripture are not to believers. And if so how can you prove that?

    I thought you wanted to learn and get to the Truth?
     
  8. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3

    Then you don't accept what Christ commanded.
     
  9. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3
    I don't suppose that you believe that we can not be loved by the Father or the Son and yet still gain eternal salvation do you?

    Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
     
  10. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know your mo is baseless accusations, but why don't you just pony up to the plate with your Scriptural support instead of personally attacking someone.

    You talk about eternal salvation, and then you put a Scripture forth that talks about works. Why do you keep preaching a works based salvation, which is in direct violation of Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9?
     
  11. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3

    I already have. You just don't want to accept the Biblical truth that if Jesus isn't ther Lord of your life you aren't saved.
     
  12. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3
    Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
     
  13. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, just how do you justify this salvation by works that you're so vigorously promoting with the Scriptures that tell us that it's not of works?

    Acts 16:31: "Believe (aorist; mental assent) on the Lord Jesus (plus nothing else) and you will (indicative; it will happen) be saved."

    Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
     
  14. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Really I must have missed the Scripture where it says if you don't accept Christ as Lord that you are still eternally damned. Would you mind pointing that out again.

    I accept that truth. What I don't accept is your personal opinion that "saved" always means eternally saved. And you and others like you have yet to prove that out to be true. So I continue to await your "proof." Of course I've stopped holding my breath a LONG time ago :).

    This is addressed to saved individuals and doesn't do anything to "prove" your point.
     
  15. Accountable

    Accountable New Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2007
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    0

    StraightandNarrow,
    I have been watching this thread to see where it was heading. Respectfully I must say that many of your verses, like these above, deal with believers, not lost men. After we are saved, we enter a race. You can sit down or you can run. It is your choice. You can choose the broad path or the narrow one.

    As I see "Lordship salvation" unfolding in your comments, I cannot help but look back for gold nuggets in the Old Testament. If you will remember, the things that happened unto the children of Isreal were and example for us. I pray that you use types in your study of Scriptures. The New is a revealing of the Old in typology.

    Anyway, if you will recall, what was required for the Lord to pass over their house in Edgypt? The blood of the Lamb had to be placed upon the mantel of the door. Atop and to the sides. A representaion of what? The shed blood of Christ. When the Lord by, what was the only thing he looked for? The blood. You see death had occured at the home but had occured vicariously.
    This, in type, was the salvation.

    If you will recall there were two feasts, one after another. The first was Passover when the blood was applied. That night the Lord passed by looking for the blood. All who did not have the blood applied, blood was required.

    The next day was the Feast of Unleaven Bread. They had to search their homes for any and all leaven. It was then their job to remove it from the home. Leaven, a type of sin, was carefully sought for and removed as it was found.

    Interestingly enough, The Lord did not look for the blood AND a bowl of leaven. The removing of leaven took place AFTER the act of salvation had occured.

    It just doesn't fit into scripture do believe Lordship is required for salvation. It is required for obedience as we walk this life seeking and removing leaven (sin.) It is a process.

    Do you agree with the Exodus 12:12-15 account as typology or not. By the way, for a type to indeed be a type, it must carry out throughout intirely. We cannot choose bits and pieces, a verse here and a verses there. We accept it all or deny it all.

    I'm looking forward to your response.
     
  16. Accountable

    Accountable New Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2007
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    0
    Striaght and Narrow,

    I forgot to add the fact that whether or not they EVER partook in the Feast of Unleaven Bread, the Passover was complete. It was another day. The Passover redemption wasn't dependent on whether or not they would or would not partae in the second feast by removing leaven.

    Sorry for leaving this out!
     
  17. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3

    Those who believe that they can simply claim to be a Christian without ever being born again are seriously mistaken. Christ said to Nicodemus, "Ye must be born again." Being born again means a complete change in what is important in your life and that translates into a change in behavior. No change in behavior means, as Jesus said, no salvation.



    Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
    Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
    Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    You see, the Kingdom of God refers to everlasting life. I know that's not what you believe. I was be very surprised if no one on this board believes that to be saved you must be born again since Jesus himself said it. I think I'll do a poll on the subject.
     
  18. Accountable

    Accountable New Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2007
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  19. canonman20d

    canonman20d New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    We can go to a church of christian faith an our belief may be christian.....But, if we don't ever confess our sins to Christ an ask him to save our soul an forgive us of our sins we are never a true "born again christian". The church can not save us,baptizing can not save us, our pastor's can save us, we can't be prayed into heaven after we die. We as one must come to Jesus an ask him to forgive us of our MANY sins an accept him in our heart to live forever.
     
  20. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, God simply forgot to put all that extra stuff in when he decided to put down, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"?
     
Loading...